George R.R. Martin starts a worldbuilding scholarship program

I'm not sure that you can explicitly teach someone how to write. I think you can put the individual in a position where they improve the skill themselves but I am not on-board with the idea that it's something objective and measurable.

I base that only on personal experience, however. When I've taken creative writing classes or workshops and they try and 'teach' me a specific style of writing, it didn't improve my actual writing skills. It just gave me a little more understanding of different styles. Possibly useful but certainly not "teaching me how to write".

No, this is absolutely true. You can't teach someone how to write. I mean, you can teach them how grammar works, and then introduce them to various styles of writing, but the most important part of learning to write is coming up with one's own unique voice, and that's something that for obvious reasons cannot be taught.
 
... you can teach them how grammar works, and then introduce them to various styles of writing, ...

You can teach them how character, plot, setting, and theme interrelate.
You can teach how the essence of a character grows out of the conflict between what the character thinks he wants and what he needs.
You can teach them to pay attention to the character's "ghosts" and to the lies the characters tell themselves as a result.
You can teach them the dangers of opening with a preface or with a description on the weather.
You can teach them how to avoid cliches or, to the contrary, how to utilize a cliche to surprise readers.
Etc., etc. etc.
 
There is a imo nice claim by Fernando Pessoa, a very important recent writer:

"The great writer writes what he is feeling, the mediocre writer writes what he thinks he is feeling, and the bad writer writes what he thinks he should be feeling" :)
 
You can teach them how character, plot, setting, and theme interrelate.
You can teach how the essence of a character grows out of the conflict between what the character thinks he wants and what he needs.
You can teach them to pay attention to the character's "ghosts" and to the lies the characters tell themselves as a result.
You can teach them the dangers of opening with a preface or with a description on the weather.
You can teach them how to avoid cliches or, to the contrary, how to utilize a cliche to surprise readers.
Etc., etc. etc.

Those are all good things to keep in mind when writing fiction. I'm talking about writing more generally.
 
I think it's also important to note that "learning how to write" (fiction) right now is very, very constrained and basically colonialist. At least in an academic setting. The things that get taught from high school through college and MFA programs all occupy a very sort of specific, entrenched idea of literary fiction and what it entails (Christian theology, subtext, foreshadowing, avoidance of genre standbys).

That said, those are generally what get published. I did some research recently out of curiosity, since I frequently read a ton of short stories that are in lit magazines, collections, contest winners, etc. I basically just took 50 short stories over the last 13 months that had done well and won something, or been published in a respected outlet, etc., and that I had come across, and of the 50 authors, all 50 of them had at least a 4 year degree, and 15 of them had an MFA. So, yeah.

Anyways, my point is that mostly what "learning how to write" is involves going to school and "learning how to appease traditionally educated, urban white people" and "how to maintain the same style that ~western classics do~" which is why authors like Cecilia Tan and Namrata Poddar basically lambaste it all. But it's also why it's what gets published, because those are the powerbrokers.
 
^I am not sure if most new stories are close in style in "western classics", though. :) Eg are there many new short stories in the style of Poe? Or Hoffmann? Or Kafka? Hesse? etc. Probably not (sadly) ^^
But, in the end, i think that in order for a person to be a good writer they need two things mainly: know how to express their own self, and have at least reasonably high intelligence (ie at least average or preferably a little above it). imho
 
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Anyways, my point is that mostly what "learning how to write" is involves going to school and "learning how to appease traditionally educated, urban white people" and "how to maintain the same style that ~western classics do~" which is why authors like Cecilia Tan and Namrata Poddar basically lambaste it all. But it's also why it's what gets published, because those are the powerbrokers.

Most of what learning to write involves is writing and then doing it again but better. School encourages that.
 
I think it's also important to note that "learning how to write" (fiction) right now is very, very constrained and basically colonialist. At least in an academic setting. The things that get taught from high school through college and MFA programs all occupy a very sort of specific, entrenched idea of literary fiction and what it entails (Christian theology, subtext, foreshadowing, avoidance of genre standbys).
That depends to some extent on who is teaching. In my high school, we learned that with a couple of the teachers, we would get higher marks if we blathered on about religious symbolism and imagery in whatever novels or poems or plays our essays were about. That got to be such a habit that by the time Grade 12 came around, a small discussion group I was part of just couldn't shake it off. We were assigned to read and discuss a poem - "The Horses" by Edwin Muir.

The other people in my group insisted the horses were a metaphor for soldiers returning after war, or they were really Jesus coming back. I kept telling them that in this case the horses were horses, and the poem was about World War III.

My classmates looked at me blankly. "But World War III hasn't happened yet" (note that the Cold War was still going on at that time and all of us were old enough to remember "duck and cover" drills in elementary school).

It was a bit of a surprise when the teacher happened by and heard the conversation. She told them to listen to me, because I was right.

I suppose my classmates' confusion can be explained by their non-interest in science fiction plus the fact that in most other assignments, the teacher would have been happy if the students had insisted the poem was really about Jesus.

This was in a public high school, btw, in the late 1970s. This teacher pushed a religious agenda of her own in other assignments that year, so I suppose it was an understandable mistake this time.


That said, those are generally what get published. I did some research recently out of curiosity, since I frequently read a ton of short stories that are in lit magazines, collections, contest winners, etc. I basically just took 50 short stories over the last 13 months that had done well and won something, or been published in a respected outlet, etc., and that I had come across, and of the 50 authors, all 50 of them had at least a 4 year degree, and 15 of them had an MFA. So, yeah.
I'd have to do some digging to find out which of my favorite authors took degrees involving writing. Taking a literature degree means writing a lot of essays about other people's writing, but it doesn't teach someone how to write fiction unless you not only read, but write.

There's a saying that "to write science fiction, you have to read science fiction." If you want to write space opera, that's true. There are a lot of things that the general public assumes are true about modern SF that really aren't. This is why Margaret Atwood sticks her nose in the air and insists The Handmaid's Tale isn't science fiction - because it doesn't include space ships, ray guns, monsters, or talking octopuses.

Well, I'd disagree with her that it doesn't contain monsters. The people running the Republic of Gilead are certainly evil.
 
^I am not sure if most new stories are close in style in "western classics", though. :) Eg are there many new short stories in the style of Poe? Or Hoffmann? Or Kafka? Hesse? etc. Probably not (sadly) ^^
But, in the end, i think that in order for a person to be a good writer they need two things mainly: know how to express their own self, and have at least reasonably high intelligence (ie at least average or preferably a little above it). imho

I mean, if you look strictly at like, vocabulary, no. Nobody is going to confuse, say, early sci-fi for like, cyberpunk. But the underlining requirements that publishers and critics for the NYT or BBC or whatever have are largely the same; be subtle and not heavy handed, insert some Christian references, show don't tell, yadda yadda. Another author who basically dedicated their entire career to criticizing it all was David Foster Wallace, so it's not like there's no room to exist outside of tradition, but it's not an easy route.

Most of what learning to write involves is writing and then doing it again but better. School encourages that.

Sure, writing programs will get you writing and reading, and that is unquestionably better than the alternative of not reading and writing. But I don't think it's that simple. School usually involves writing a specific way. Like, I know of several colleges in the midwest in the 2000s that pushed back against free verse poetry and postmodernism, and tried to orient their programs to dissuade students from writing it, even though the most popular 21st century poetry is almost all free verse, post-modern, narrative-less writing.
 
Sure, writing programs will get you writing and reading, and that is unquestionably better than the alternative of not reading and writing. But I don't think it's that simple. School usually involves writing a specific way.
The secret to being a writer is to write. School encourages that. School may not be the be all and all, but it does encourage the most basic and essential requirement of being a writer.
 
The secret to being a writer is to write. School encourages that. School may not be the be all and all, but it does encourage the most basic and essential requirement of being a writer.

Actually, I think the secret to being a writer is to write without encouragement. School is perhaps counterproductive to that. I saw a brilliant answer to the classic "writer's block" question one time that sort of applies here.

Q: How do you get past it when you get blocked.
A: I write. I'm a professional. If I "have a block," or I "don't feel like it," or I'm tempted to "wait for inspiration," I write. The next day I might read what I wrote and decide it was all crap and throw it out, which is discouraging, and when I'm discouraged I write, because I am a professional.

I don't remember exactly who said that, but I do remember that they are one of those people who I consider to have written a multitude of good books, and a multitude of crappy books...but overall an enormous number of books that have been published and sold in mass quantities. If really pressed to attribute it I'd guess Stephen King or Dean Koontz...or oddly enough Orson Scott Card...but I'd bet that GRR Martin would nod upon hearing it.
 
The secret to being a writer is to write. School encourages that. School may not be the be all and all, but it does encourage the most basic and essential requirement of being a writer.
This is why I encourage people to take part in NaNoWriMo, and why I brought Iron Pen here from another forum.
 
Q: How do you get past it when you get blocked.
A: I write. I'm a professional. If I "have a block," or I "don't feel like it," or I'm tempted to "wait for inspiration," I write. The next day I might read what I wrote and decide it was all crap and throw it out, which is discouraging, and when I'm discouraged I write, because I am a professional.
...
If really pressed to attribute it I'd guess Stephen King or Dean Koontz...or oddly enough Orson Scott Card...but I'd bet that GRR Martin would nod upon hearing it.

I would have guess George Sand. :dubious:
 
I am not at all in a humour for writing; I must write on until I am.
--Jane Austen

"The great writer writes what he is feeling, the mediocre writer writes what he thinks he is feeling, and the bad writer writes what he thinks he should be feeling"

Yuck. No one who writes about his feelz is likely to attain even the status of a mediocre writer.
 
Yuck. No one who writes about his feelz is likely to attain even the status of a mediocre writer.

I'd disagree. The entire mid aughts explosion of the personal narrative was this. Cat Person, warts and all, was this. Catcher in the Rye was this. Almost the entire music industry is built on writing about personal feelings. It mostly just matters that you can write it in a way people can connect to.
 
I'd disagree. The entire mid aughts explosion of the personal narrative was this. Cat Person, warts and all, was this. Catcher in the Rye was this. Almost the entire music industry is built on writing about personal feelings. It mostly just matters that you can write it in a way people can connect to.

Personal narrative, as a writing form, does not perforce deal with the feelings of the writer. In the case of a fiction writer they won't deal with the feelings of the writer. Unless the narrative is autobiographical the job is to write the narrative of a character, and it is the feelings of the character that need to be presented in a way people can connect to.
 
Personal narrative, as a writing form, does not perforce deal with the feelings of the writer. In the case of a fiction writer they won't deal with the feelings of the writer. Unless the narrative is autobiographical the job is to write the narrative of a character, and it is the feelings of the character that need to be presented in a way people can connect to.

The main character is the author.
 
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