Global warming debate continued

Mask
You mean like this post I made on the first page?

Yeah, like that ;) So why aint you debating it? And dont forget, this is what you said before posting that:

I am going to ask this again: given that I don't know much about the actual science behind global warming, why should I believe a random guy like you on the internet, over the consensus of the scientific community?

Now what I dont understand is how you can claim to be largely ignorant of the science yet convince yerself by spending, what? A few minutes at Wiki?

And I did not say that "all opinion other than "the scientific consensus" doesn't matter", I said that in my opinion, when you are not an expert on a given subject, it's wise to trust the experts.

So which is it? You trust them or they convinced you? I dont think thats wise, it may be unavoidable but it aint wise.
 
I think yer confusing drought with run off. Drought is lack of rain and the Ganges is fed by snowmelt from mountains over 20 k high. Mountains that remain covered in ice and snow all thru summer because there is far too much of it to melt and/or its too cold up there. So if temps went up 2-3 degrees, more ice and snow melts.
The absolute question is "if the temps go up 2-3 degrees, would the Ganges run out of snowmelt" partway through the summer"? There are many, many rivers which would run out partway through the growing season. Maybe not right away, but after all their historical snowmelt is used up.

India is currently using their aquifer water at unsustainable rates (which is something which can be compensated for with wisdom), but we're currently causing risk to their river system too.

And, without offense, the people who're expressing concern about the Ganges have much more knowledge about the topic than either of us do. But they are concerned. Additionally, the Ganges is just one example of one area potentially at risk.
But then the increased evaporation will produced more snow for the mountains in the winter.
There's no guarantee where precipitation will increase
Furthermore, we can reduce the effects of drought by pumping ocean water into the Sahara and other deserts and basins to regulate sea levels and provide for irrigation etc. That would transform huge drought regions into viable ecosystems. Terra-forming, Baby! ;)
If it's a viable idea, we should be doing it regardless of the climate change debate. No? I've never heard a reasonable scenario for pumping ocean water into the desert, and I can't really imagine adding salt water to sand as being useful.
You are now, according to you anyway.
Yes, I am. My current CO2 footprint is currently higher than is sustainable. I'm working on it. My CO2 footprint has be much lower than the developed world's average for a long, long time however. What can I do? It takes time to spin some of my money into solutions
.. Yer making assumptions, climate changes can hurt and can help. More water in the system should mean more growth and more rain and snow.
Yes, climate change should help some people. But we don't know who. And we don't know at whose expense.
 
How does one go about wisely selecting an expert? We use experts in nearly every aspect of our lives (from our cars to our health to our legal matters) because they've devoted years and years of specialised training to their field. So how does one choose an expert or group of experts within a field?


Like I said before, global warming is a religion. If you're Catholic, you pick the Pope as your expert. If you listen to the 6-o'clock news, you pick Al Gore as your global warming expert.
 
Like I said before, global warming is a religion. If you're Catholic, you pick the Pope as your expert. If you listen to the 6-o'clock news, you pick Al Gore as your global warming expert.

:lol: CONVERT NOW OR DIE FOREVER! /jk
 
Like I said before, global warming is a religion. If you're Catholic, you pick the Pope as your expert. If you listen to the 6-o'clock news, you pick Al Gore as your global warming expert.

Like I said, I was informed regarding global warming well before Al Gore popularized it. The majority of the people who did the convincing for me were people who had worked in the areas of ecology and geology for over 15 years, most of those years discovering new science on those topics.

After that, I was willing to listen to the climatologists, who had also spent 15+ years working in the field (discovering new science on the topic).

If I needed a lawyer, and there was a cabal of lawyers with over 15 years experience each, who had written many arguments which had been accepted by judges, and were considered bang-up lawyers by other lawyers ... I would take their advice.

So, how does one wisely choose a group of experts?
 
The absolute question is "if the temps go up 2-3 degrees, would the Ganges run out of snowmelt" partway through the summer"? There are many, many rivers which would run out partway through the growing season. Maybe not right away, but after all their historical snowmelt is used up.

This is where we'd need some experts ;) to step in with models of increased precip compared to run off. I dont think those altitudes would warm up much, the 2-3 degrees is at sea level. I'd suspect a double digit increase in temps would be required to melt the Himalayas, but thats just a guess. The Andean glacier fields are actually a better example for your argument given their proximity to the equator. Those may indeed melt... But they may have melted during past interglacials, possibly even during the early holocene when temps were higher. I'd like to think we have that much impact but I'm dubious about the science.

India is currently using their aquifer water at unsustainable rates (which is something which can be compensated for with wisdom), but we're currently causing risk to their river system too.

I'm assuming more evaporation because of a warmer world will produce heavier snows in the mountains feeding India water. You're assuming all that snowpack over 15-20 k ft up will melt each year leaving India in need. Until deforestation around Kiliminjaro turned the top into a desert wrt precip, it had snow year round even though its close to the equator.

And, without offense, the people who're expressing concern about the Ganges have much more knowledge about the topic than either of us do. But they are concerned. Additionally, the Ganges is just one example of one area potentially at risk.

Whats their concern? They need water? The population has outpaced run off? Need more run off? Then you need more snowpack. How do we get more snowpack? Increase evaporation...a warmer world.

There's no guarantee where precipitation will increase If it's a viable idea, we should be doing it regardless of the climate change debate. No? I've never heard a reasonable scenario for pumping ocean water into the desert, and I can't really imagine adding salt water to sand as being useful.

It changes regional climate, breaks up the hot dry winds with increased humidity, attracts life. De-salinate and irrigate... Inland seas are oases of life. :)

Yes, I am. My current CO2 footprint is currently higher than is sustainable. I'm working on it. My CO2 footprint has be much lower than the developed world's average for a long, long time however. What can I do? It takes time to spin some of my money into solutions
Yes, climate change should help some people. But we don't know who. And we don't know at whose expense.

What can you do? Stop trying to cool the world down ;)
If you/we succeed, will we be responsible for the climate changes we brought about?
 
on a sidenote - deserts and ice sheets are bad for the world. ;)
They dont slow winds but they do make them hot or cold. The deserts needs water and the ice sheets have it all.
 
This is where we'd need some experts ;) to step in with models of increased precip compared to run off. I dont think those altitudes would warm up much, the 2-3 degrees is at sea level. I'd suspect a double digit increase in temps would be required to melt the Himalayas, but thats just a guess. The Andean glacier fields are actually a better example for your argument given their proximity to the equator. Those may indeed melt... But they may have melted during past interglacials, possibly even during the early holocene when temps were higher. I'd like to think we have that much impact but I'm dubious about the science.

The current UN goal is to stop global warming at the 2-3 degree increase! That's what they're trying to do. That's what all the noise by the UNPCC is!

They recognise that we can't possibly stop our impact. It's reasonable to reduce our impact to 2-3 degrees, if we act wisely. The goal is to first reduce the acceleration of CO2 pollution and then to slow the rate of increase to sustainable levels. Because if we don't, we're going to shoot well past any type of reasonable 'stopping point' around 2050. Their goal is to get things so that by 2050, the net impact will be 2-3 degrees by 2100 (and to have the rate of temperature change to not be too abrupt).

And all the analyses show that it's wiser to start action on the issue now, because it becomes geometrically more expensive to change course later.

What can you do? Stop trying to cool the world down
If you/we succeed, will we be responsible for the climate changes we brought about?
A rule in pollution theory is that you're directly responsible for the pollution you cause. You're not 'responsible' for negative effects of stopping your pollution. If there are downstream benefits to your pollution, then you're allowed to stop the pollution if you want, or continue if they pay you, or whatever. You are responsible to those downstream of your negative effects.

:hatsoff: thanks for being polite
 
That big cities are the problem rather than the solution. It would appear greenifying a society isn't so simple.

But it was only one study, so probably too soon to draw a hard conclusion.

It would make sense though, as mentioned before, urbanites have everything more or less within walking distance coupled with [varying degrees of] efficient/effective public transit. Contrasted with ruralite/suburbanite residents who are heavily dependent upon cars..

I guess I'm an adherent to unconventional wisdom.. :crazyeye:
 
Yer welcome EL M, and same to you

I'll be surprised if temps actually go up 2-3 degrees, I imagine the tendency for models is to over-estimate CO2 effect due a lack of knowledge of all the countering factors we cant accurately assess, like carbon sinks and global "dimming". But I can hope ;)

I believe precipitation does partially cleanse the atmosphere of gases like CO2. Maybe we have a chemist here who knows that stuff, but acid rain is just precip cleansing the atmosphere of some nasty stuff. So with increased evaporation and precipitation we'd see another factor countering significant increases in greenhouse gases. I'm not too keen on all this talk about "tipping points" etc where the climate just runs off in one direction given how many things work against each other to create some stability.

But just in case ;) I think we need to start setting up some kind of system for regulating sea levels. Pumping water inland seems to be about the "easiest" way.
 
But just in case ;) I think we need to start setting up some kind of system for regulating sea levels. Pumping water inland seems to be about the "easiest" way.

Where is the pumping energy going to come from? And how are you going to desalinate the water, or are you fine with wide-spread desertification?
 
Like I said before, global warming is a religion. If you're Catholic, you pick the Pope as your expert. If you listen to the 6-o'clock news, you pick Al Gore as your global warming expert.
The only people who are presenting Al Gore as expert are those seeking to discredit the real scientists. So they can make statements like you just did. Al Gore is an expert in the field of Power Point presentations. Not an environmental expert.
 
I'll be surprised if temps actually go up 2-3 degrees, I imagine the tendency for models is to over-estimate CO2 effect due a lack of knowledge of all the countering factors we cant accurately assess, like carbon sinks and global "dimming". But I can hope ;)
I think that's their strongest estimate. Various models come up with different amounts, but the models aren't as robust.

2-3 degree increase is also the consensus for what's the least risky. If we're lucky, economic growth in the third world will offset the burden they suffer from climate change.
I believe precipitation does partially cleanse the atmosphere of gases like CO2. Maybe we have a chemist here who knows that stuff, but acid rain is just precip cleansing the atmosphere of some nasty stuff. So with increased evaporation and precipitation we'd see another factor countering significant increases in greenhouse gases.
There certainly IS some type of scrubbing going on, because about 1/3 or 2/3 of our yearly emissions have not permanently ended up in the atmosphere. Each year, CO2 only goes up 1/3-2/3 of what we emit. How long those sinks will last is poorly known
I'm not too keen on all this talk about "tipping points" etc where the climate just runs off in one direction given how many things work against each other to create some stability.
I think tipping points ARE a concern, but ones not really worth worrying about too much (since we just don't know enough about them). My main serious complaint with Gore's movie was that he seemed to present the tipping points as inevitable if we don't act. He actually never says that, but the format of his presentation hinted it too strongly. It's something we'd know more about in the next 20-40 years and the threat is not really present before then. If we're approaching the 500ppm area, we would really have enough knowledge to assess our targets, and if a tipping point was a threat, we'd just have to spend massive amounts of money correcting the threat (and hope that 'passing the buck' doesn't ruin everything)
 
OK.

All this talk of global warming being a religion has inspired me.

All you non-believers this is your chance for redemption. Repent now or suffer for eternity! Convert or be cast out of society for all time!

Come kneel before the almighty at the alter (made from recycled lumber) and pray for forgiveness.

Repeat after me:

I swear to trade in my gas guzzler for a fuel efficient compact car.
I swear to replace all my light bulbs with compact-fluorescents.
I swear to be energy conscious at all times.
I will make going green a permanent part of my lifestyle!

May Mother Earth have mercy on your souls!





:lol:

:joke:
 
Do note that I have changed my location to be "Kingdom of Gore":lol:, I was the very first convert to the truth. Now we have our prophet of Doom, as revealed by the first apostate Woody1. We need a to find the name of God.
 
Where is the pumping energy going to come from? And how are you going to desalinate the water, or are you fine with wide-spread desertification?

Where do we get energy now to pump water? And we already de-salinate ocean water. And you'll have to explain how pumping water into the Sahara promotes widespread desertification.
 
Where do we get energy now to pump water? And we already de-salinate ocean water. And you'll have to explain how pumping water into the Sahara promotes widespread desertification.

Total annual US water use is 1/2 billion acre-feet. Most of this water is pumped over short distances and small elevations. To lower the world's sea levels by one inch would require removing 7.4 billion acre-feet.

To desalinate that much water would require insane amounts of energy.
 
Since deep level aquifers actually filter groundwater, I wonder if we could find a deep (but empty) aquifer in the desert, and then pump masses of seawater onto the sand above it?

I mean, heck, how much could it hurt? We could get a huge salt lake in the middle of the desert, and then maybe a water source below it.

It would only be a temporary resource, of course.
 
Read this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=208566&highlight=solar
[/U][/B]Funny, maybe we should leave the actual science to scientists? ;)

OK here are just a few renound scientists that....

Believe global warming is not occurring or has ceased

Spoiler :
Surface temperatures measured by thermometers and lower atmospheric temperature trends inferred from satellites Timothy F. Ball, former Professor of Geography, University of Winnipeg: "[The world's climate] warmed from 1680 up to 1940, but since 1940 it's been cooling down. The evidence for warming is because of distorted records. The satellite data, for example, shows cooling." (November 2004)[5] "There's been warming, no question. I've never debated that; never disputed that. The dispute is, what is the cause. And of course the argument that human CO2 being added to the atmosphere is the cause just simply doesn't hold up..." (May 18, 2006; at 15:30 into recording of interview)[6] "The temperature hasn't gone up. ... But the mood of the world has changed: It has heated up to this belief in global warming." (August 2006)[7] "Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. ... By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling." (Feb. 5, 2007)[8]

Robert M. Carter, geologist, researcher at the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University in Australia: "the accepted global average temperature statistics used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change show that no ground-based warming has occurred since 1998 ... there is every doubt whether any global warming at all is occurring at the moment, let alone human-caused warming."[9]

Vincent R. Gray, coal chemist, climate consultant, founder of the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition: "The two main 'scientific' claims of the IPCC are the claim that 'the globe is warming' and 'Increases in carbon dioxide emissions are responsible'. Evidence for both of these claims is fatally flawed."[10]


Believe accuracy of IPCC climate projections is inadequate

Individuals in this section conclude that it is not possible to project global climate accurately enough to justify the ranges projected for temperature and sea-level rise over the next century. They do not conclude specifically that the current IPCC projections are either too high or too low, but that the projections are likely to be inaccurate due to inadequacies of current global climate modeling.
Spoiler :

David Bellamy, environmental campaigner, broadcaster and former botanist: a doubling of atmospheric CO2 "will amount to less than 1°C of global warming [and] such a scenario is unlikely to arise given our limited reserves of fossil fuels—certainly not before the end of this century."[11]

Hendrik Tennekes, retired Director of Research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute: "The blind adherence to the harebrained idea that climate models can generate 'realistic' simulations of climate is the principal reason why I remain a climate skeptic. From my background in turbulence I look forward with grim anticipation to the day that climate models will run with a horizontal resolution of less than a kilometer. The horrible predictability problems of turbulent flows then will descend on climate science with a vengeance."[12]

Antonino Zichichi, emeritus professor of nuclear physics at the University of Bologna and president of the World Federation of Scientists : "models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) are incoherent and invalid from a scientific point of view".[13]


Believe global warming is primarily caused by natural processes

Individuals in this section conclude that the observed warming is more likely attributable to natural causes than to human activities.

Spoiler :

Khabibullo Abdusamatov, mathematician and astronomer at Pulkovskaya Observatory of the Russian Academy of Sciences: "Global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity...Ascribing 'greenhouse' effect properties to the Earth's atmosphere is not scientifically substantiated...Heated greenhouse gases, which become lighter as a result of expansion, ascend to the atmosphere only to give the absorbed heat away."[14][15][16]

Sallie Baliunas, astronomer, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: "[T]he recent warming trend in the surface temperature record cannot be caused by the increase of human-made greenhouse gases in the air."[17]
Reid Bryson, emeritus professor of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences, University of Wisconsin-Madison: "It’s absurd. Of course it’s going up. It has gone up since the early 1800s, before the Industrial Revolution, because we’re coming out of the Little Ice Age, not because we’re putting more carbon dioxide into the air."[18]

George V. Chilingar, Professor of Civil and Petroleum Engineering at the University of Southern California: "The authors identify and describe the following global forces of nature driving the Earth’s climate: (1) solar radiation ..., (2) outgassing as a major supplier of gases to the World Ocean and the atmosphere, and, possibly, (3) microbial activities ... . The writers provide quantitative estimates of the scope and extent of their corresponding effects on the Earth’s climate [and] show that the human-induced climatic changes are negligible."[19]

Ian Clark, hydrogeologist, professor, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa: "That portion of the scientific community that attributes climate warming to CO2 relies on the hypothesis that increasing CO2, which is in fact a minor greenhouse gas, triggers a much larger water vapour response to warm the atmosphere. This mechanism has never been tested scientifically beyond the mathematical models that predict extensive warming, and are confounded by the complexity of cloud formation - which has a cooling effect. ... We know that [the sun] was responsible for climate change in the past, and so is clearly going to play the lead role in present and future climate change. And interestingly... solar activity has recently begun a downward cycle."[20]

David Douglass, solid-state physicist, professor, Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Rochester: "The observed pattern of warming, comparing surface and atmospheric temperature trends, does not show the characteristic fingerprint associated with greenhouse warming. The inescapable conclusion is that the human contribution is not significant and that observed increases in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases make only a negligible contribution to climate warming."[21]
Don Easterbrook, emeritus professor of geology, Western Washington University: "global warming since 1900 could well have happened without any effect of CO2. If the cycles continue as in the past, the current warm cycle should end soon and global temperatures should cool slightly until about 2035"[22]

William M. Gray, Professor Emeritus and head of The Tropical Meteorology Project, Department of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University: "This small warming is likely a result of the natural alterations in global ocean currents which are driven by ocean salinity variations. Ocean circulation variations are as yet little understood. Human kind has little or nothing to do with the recent temperature changes. We are not that influential."[23] "I am of the opinion that [global warming] is one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the American people."[24] "So many people have a vested interest in this global-warming thing—all these big labs and research and stuff. The idea is to frighten the public, to get money to study it more."[25]

William Kininmonth, meteorologist, former Australian delegate to World Meteorological Organization Commission for Climatology: "There has been a real climate change over the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries that can be attributed to natural phenomena. Natural variability of the climate system has been underestimated by IPCC and has, to now, dominated human influences."[26]

George Kukla, retired Professor of Climatology at Columbia University and Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, said in an interview: "What I think is this: Man is responsible for a PART of global warming. MOST of it is still natural."[27]

David Legates, associate professor of geography and director of the Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware: "About half of the warming during the 20th century occurred prior to the 1940s, and natural variability accounts for all or nearly all of the warming."[28]

Marcel Leroux, former Professor of Climatology, Université Jean Moulin: "The possible causes, then, of climate change are: well-established orbital parameters on the palaeoclimatic scale, ... solar activity, ...; volcanism ...; and far at the rear, the greenhouse effect, and in particular that caused by water vapor, the extent of its influence being unknown. These factors are working together all the time, and it seems difficult to unravel the relative importance of their respective influences upon climatic evolution. Equally, it is tendentious to highlight the anthropic factor, which is, clearly, the least credible among all those previously mentioned."[29]

Tad Murty, oceanographer; adjunct professor, Departments of Civil Engineering and Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa: global warming "is the biggest scientific hoax being perpetrated on humanity. There is no global warming due to human anthropogenic activities. The atmosphere hasn’t changed much in 280 million years, and there have always been cycles of warming and cooling. The Cretaceous period was the warmest on earth. You could have grown tomatoes at the North Pole"[30]

Tim Patterson[31], paleoclimatologist and Professor of Geology at Carleton University in Canada: "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years. On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?"[32][33]

Ian Plimer, Professor of Mining Geology, The University of Adelaide: "We only have to have one volcano burping and we have changed the whole planetary climate... It looks as if carbon dioxide actually follows climate change rather than drives it".[34]

Tom Segalstad, head of the Geological Museum at the University of Oslo: "It is a search for a mythical CO2 sink to explain an immeasurable CO2 lifetime to fit a hypothetical CO2 computer model that purports to show that an impossible amount of fossil fuel burning is heating the atmosphere. It is all a fiction".[35][36]

Nir Shaviv, astrophysicist at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem: "[T]he truth is probably somewhere in between [the common view and that of skeptics], with natural causes probably being more important over the past century, whereas anthropogenic causes will probably be more dominant over the next century. ... [A]bout 2/3's (give or take a third or so) of the warming [over the past century] should be attributed to increased solar activity and the remaining to anthropogenic causes." His opinion is based on some proxies of solar activity over the past few centuries.[37]

Fred Singer, Professor emeritus of Environmental Sciences at the University of Virginia: "The greenhouse effect is real. However, the effect is minute, insignificant, and very difficult to detect."[38][39] “It’s not automatically true that warming is bad, I happen to believe that warming is good, and so do many economists.”[40]

Willie Soon, astrophysicist, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: "[T]here's increasingly strong evidence that previous research conclusions, including those of the United Nations and the United States government concerning 20th century warming, may have been biased by underestimation of natural climate variations. The bottom line is that if these variations are indeed proven true, then, yes, natural climate fluctuations could be a dominant factor in the recent warming. In other words, natural factors could be more important than previously assumed."[41]

Philip Stott, professor emeritus of biogeography at the University of London: "...the myth is starting to implode. ... Serious new research at The Max Planck Institute has indicated that the sun is a far more significant factor..."[42]

Henrik Svensmark, Danish National Space Center: "Our team ... has discovered that the relatively few cosmic rays that reach sea-level play a big part in the everyday weather. They help to make low-level clouds, which largely regulate the Earth’s surface temperature. During the 20th Century the influx of cosmic rays decreased and the resulting reduction of cloudiness allowed the world to warm up. ... most of the warming during the 20th Century can be explained by a reduction in low cloud cover."[43]

Jan Veizer, environmental geochemist, Professor Emeritus from University of Ottawa: "At this stage, two scenarios of potential human impact on climate appear feasible: (1) the standard IPCC model ..., and (2) the alternative model that argues for celestial phenomena as the principal climate driver. ... Models and empirical observations are both indispensable tools of science, yet when discrepancies arise, observations should carry greater weight than theory. If so, the multitude of empirical observations favours celestial phenomena as the most important driver of terrestrial climate on most time scales, but time will be the final judge."[44]


Believe cause of global warming is unknown

Scientists in this section conclude it is too early to ascribe any principal cause to the observed rising temperatures, man-made or natural.

Spoiler :

Syun-Ichi Akasofu, retired professor of geophysics and Founding Director of the International Arctic Research Center of the University of Alaska Fairbanks: "[T]he method of study adopted by the International Panel of Climate Change (IPCC) is fundamentally flawed, resulting in a baseless conclusion: Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations. Contrary to this statement ..., there is so far no definitive evidence that 'most' of the present warming is due to the greenhouse effect. ... [The IPCC] should have recognized that the range of observed natural changes should not be ignored, and thus their conclusion should be very tentative. The term 'most' in their conclusion is baseless."[45]

Claude Allègre, geochemist, Institute of Geophysics (Paris): "The increase in the CO2 content of the atmosphere is an observed fact and mankind is most certainly responsible. In the long term, this increase will without doubt become harmful, but its exact role in the climate is less clear. Various parameters appear more important than CO2. Consider the water cycle and formation of various types of clouds, and the complex effects of industrial or agricultural dust. Or fluctuations of the intensity of the solar radiation on annual and century scale, which seem better correlated with heating effects than the variations of CO2 content."[46]

Robert C. Balling, Jr., a professor of geography at Arizona State University: "t is very likely that the recent upward trend [in global surface temperature] is very real and that the upward signal is greater than any noise introduced from uncertainties in the record. However, the general error is most likely to be in the warming direction, with a maximum possible (though unlikely) value of 0.3 °C. ... At this moment in time we know only that: (1) Global surface temperatures have risen in recent decades. (2) Mid-tropospheric temperatures have warmed little over the same period. (3) This difference is not consistent with predictions from numerical climate models."[47]

John Christy, professor of atmospheric science and director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, contributor to several IPCC reports: "I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see. Rather, I see a reliance on climate models (useful but never "proof") and the coincidence that changes in carbon dioxide and global temperatures have loose similarity over time."[48]
Petr Chylek, Space and Remote Sensing Sciences researcher, Los Alamos National Laboratory: "carbon dioxide should not be considered as a dominant force behind the current warming...how much of the [temperature] increase can be ascribed to CO2, to changes in solar activity, or to the natural variability of climate is uncertain"[49]

William R. Cotton, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Colorado State University said in a presentation, "It is an open question if human produced changes in climate are large enough to be detected from the noise of the natural variability of the climate system."[50]

Chris de Freitas, Associate Professor, School of Geography, Geology and Environmental Science, University of Auckland: "There is evidence of global warming. ... But warming does not confirm that carbon dioxide is causing it. Climate is always warming or cooling. There are natural variability theories of warming. To support the argument that carbon dioxide is causing it, the evidence would have to distinguish between human-caused and natural warming. This has not been done."[51]

David Deming, geology professor at the University of Oklahoma: "The amount of climatic warming that has taken place in the past 150 years is poorly constrained, and its cause--human or natural--is unknown. There is no sound scientific basis for predicting future climate change with any degree of certainty. If the climate does warm, it is likely to be beneficial to humanity rather than harmful. In my opinion, it would be foolish to establish national energy policy on the basis of misinformation and irrational hysteria."[52]

Richard Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and member of the National Academy of Sciences: "We are quite confident (1) that global mean temperature is about 0.5 °C higher than it was a century ago; (2) that atmospheric levels of CO2 have risen over the past two centuries; and (3) that CO2 is a greenhouse gas whose increase is likely to warm the earth (one of many, the most important being water vapor and clouds). But--and I cannot stress this enough--we are not in a position to confidently attribute past climate change to CO2 or to forecast what the climate will be in the future."[53] "[T]here has been no question whatsoever that CO2 is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas — albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in CO2 should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed."[54]

Roy Spencer, principal research scientist, University of Alabama in Huntsville: "We need to find out how much of the warming we are seeing could be due to mankind, because I still maintain we have no idea how much you can attribute to mankind."[55]


Believe global warming will benefit human society

Scientists in this section conclude that projected rising temperatures and/or increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide will be of little impact or a net positive for human society.

Spoiler :

Craig D. Idso, faculty researcher, Office of Climatology, Arizona State University; founder of The Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change: "the rising CO2 content of the air should boost global plant productivity dramatically, enabling humanity to increase food, fiber and timber production and thereby continue to feed, clothe, and provide shelter for their still-increasing numbers...this atmospheric CO2-derived blessing is as sure as death and taxes."[56]

Sherwood Idso, former research physicist, USDA Water Conservation Laboratory, and adjunct professor, Arizona State University: "[W]arming has been shown to positively impact human health, while atmospheric CO2 enrichment has been shown to enhance the health-promoting properties of the food we eat, as well as stimulate the production of more of it. ... [W]e have nothing to fear from increasing concentrations of atmospheric CO2 and global warming."[57]

Patrick Michaels, part-time research professor of Environmental Sciences at the University of Virginia: "scientists know quite precisely how much the planet will warm in the foreseeable future, a modest three-quarters of a degree (Celsius), plus or minus a mere quarter-degree...a modest warming is a likely benefit."[58]


I would also like to clarify a mistake I made in the second post in this thread. It is the Antarctic ice sheet that is expanding not the Arctic and it has set a new record-

Just months after global warming alarmists attempted to scare people by claiming warming was causing a record shrinkage of Arctic sea ice, NASA scientists report the ice is now expanding at a record pace.

In September and October 2007, global warming activists achieved media headlines worldwide by asserting Arctic sea ice was at an all-time low and global warming was to blame.

The asserted "all-time" low extended back only to 1979, and NASA reported in November the Arctic sea is regenerating ice at a record pace. In addition, NASA scientists on October 4 published a study documenting how a recent change in Arctic regional wind patterns, rather than global warming, caused the briefly receding sea ice.

Further refuting the scare stories, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reports Antarctic sea ice in 2007 reached its largest extent in recorded history.

"While the news focus has been on the lowest ice extent since satellite monitoring began in 1979 for the Arctic, the Southern Hemisphere [Antarctica] has quietly set a new record for most ice extent since 1979," said meteorologist Joe D'Aleo, executive director of the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project.

"This winter has been an especially harsh one in the Southern Hemisphere, with cold and snow records set in Australia, South America, and Africa," D'Aleo added.

I don't have time right now but I will link all of the sources for anyone who has yet to actually research this topic on their own. It scares me how much people take the twisting of words from alarmists at face value. Does anyone know that most of the scientists from the IPCC report have sued to take their names off the list. Do your homework and you will see that there is a lot of money and power behind this movement. Far more than any oil or energy company.
 
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