God and the paradox of rational mind

[King Flevance]

Hmmm... I am fully certain of this theory too BTW.
If you trust me, I can tell you this theory is true for any Christian. But we all gamble with our beliefs. But even if you think it is false, you can still have fun with it anyways IMO.

Also, according to my logic about sin and truth, I think so long as you can remain in the reasonable logic, over rational is how you get to heaven. The more you are able to seem "reasonable" to ultimate truth, over rational in the end is how you will be judged. I don't know.

Where is Mobboss when you need him? I wanna see his "logical personality" now if I can. Seriously, he knows alot of scripture.

 

[Swedishguy]

Humans who had a reason and could reason very well.

The bible was wrote for a reason. So it uses reasoning. There is reasonable truth in it logically.

However, now you run into a logical problem. Dishonesty. It is hard to spot dishonesty in truth. Because everything can divide to/into truth. So what do you trust to be dishonest? Faith is honest.

My belief has me try to find honesty in the bible, as well as how to live. This is where reading the bible gets hard. Because you need a reason to follow it. Both the OT and the NT have different rationalities in them it seems to me in humans. So it gets hard to decifer ultimate truth out of it. This is why faith must be a part of the equation IMO. And knowledge of it must be applied to your logical personality.

I don't think it is possible to obtain "ultimate truth" in life. Heaven is certainly a hard place to imagine. You can try to see it reasonably, but I have found no rational view for it myself yet. I do believe that is when I will be handed "truth" in it's purest form. Heaven is a hard thing to discuss either rationally or reasonably IMO. To me, what heaven is, isn't exactly important. So long as I end up beside truth (God and Jesus) in the end.

Although, I believe our faith may be "the holy spirit". This would define us upon leaving life and our actions would also be included. So faith (reason) and action (rational). I don't know. These things are debated over alot. Hehe, they alot of the theories seem logical to me.

EDIT: However, we are suppose to utilize both reason and rational inside the bible right? Or use rational to define reason inside of it. Seems both views are inside it to me. Mostly reason though IMO.

Only one positive thing can be said with the Bible. It doesn't contain any lies. The authors fully believed in what they wrote.

However, it doesn't, as said before, contain any truth. It quickly transformed into a weapon of might by Octavianus.

No, faith isn't honest.

 

[King Flevance]

Only one positive thing can be said with the Bible. It doesn't contain any lies. The authors fully believed in what they wrote.

Indeed.

However, it doesn't, as said before, contain any truth. It quickly transformed into a weapon of might by Octavianus.

No, faith isn't honest.

Your faith may not be honest, mine is. If you doubt God because you doubt your fellow man, you extremely undershoot God's capabilities of being the ultimate being of power and justice.

Men with 100% faith in God and Jesus can do anything because of the will of God being on their side. If you do not believe that is possible, then I feel sorry for anyone who agrees with that mentality.

 

[Millman]

I've given my views ten times over but something to ponder is if god needed a rough draft? What is his/her ultimate goal?

If he or she wants us to believe in him or her it has failed because not everyone believes in him/her.

 

[King Flevance]

I've given my views ten times over but something to ponder is if god needed a rough draft? What is his/her ultimate goal?

I am guessing to save as many souls from satans grip as possible. So that we all may live in harmony.

If he or she wants us to believe in him or her it has failed because not everyone believes in him/her.

He or She hasn't failed YET.

 

[Millman]

You can tag on 'yet' to many things.

He or she didn't entirely succeed always since humanity managed to doubt his or her existance for awhile.

 

[King Flevance]

I can fully tag yet onto this in my belief. I do not waver on it. An ultimate battle between God and satan will take place. Any on the side of satan will fall with him.

Some of humanity exercises their right to free will through being stubborn. That is OK for now. But patience is hopefully a virtue they possess. Because all God can provide is time.

If someone chooses to follow their stubborness, they will follow it to the grave. And God provided us all with the free will to do so.

 

[warpus]

That's logical. I can agree with that. But I am not sure how to find your logical personality until you test my faith.

I don't know what that means.

That's rational. But to me at this point, totally unreasonable. I can do nothing more for you. It's up to you to seek God if you wish to know Him. If you wish to define truth in life yourself. You're entitled to in my beliefs.

To me, making any sort of claims about God without evidence is unreasonable and intellectually dishonest. Why should I listen to what you have to say about God over a Hindu.. or a Buddhist.. or a Scientologist? When none of you have any evidence that what you're saying is correct? Nah, the only sensible thing to do is to assume that you are all wrong, but to leave the possibility of God existing open.

Why do you think you should have the ability to understand God anyway? Maybe you don't Maybe he doesn't exist. You don't know.. yet you make claims about him/it anyway.

I am guessing to save as many souls from satans grip as possible. So that we all may live in harmony.

So destroy Satan already.. sheesh.. what is this, a game??

 

[King Flevance]

I don't know what that means.

It means I have 100% faith Jesus is my savior. I have seen him in my life watching out for me since I was young.

When I was little, I was raised catholic. The hanging body of Jesus on the church walls haunted me. Church was spooky. Here we all were on Christmas and sunday celebrating the death of another man. I didn't understand why then. But I never stopped praying to him and apologizing for it and apologizing for mankind's hatred of him. He has been very gracious to me in my life. When someone tests my faith only more secrets in him are revealed. Like the Theory of Reason I am working on by my understanding of him.

If you don't test my faith I cannot understand why it is so hard to believe.

To me, making any sort of claims about God without evidence is unreasonable and intellectually dishonest. Why should I listen to what you have to say about God over a Hindu.. or a Buddhist.. or a Scientologist? When none of you have any evidence that what you're saying is correct? Nah, the only sensible thing to do is to assume that you are all wrong, but to leave the possibility of God existing open.

I am saying I have evidence he watches over us. Why you should listen to me is up to you. I can say my God is 100% truth. And you will be able to weed out the lies of satan inside mankind.
I will never be able to provide falsafiable evidence about my God. I apologize for that. The only way to salvation is belief in Jesus AFAIK for mankind. Jesus has many teachings in the bible that will allow you to see truth in it. By trying to understand the reason for his teachings, you understand more about him.

In the end, whatever you choose to believe in is up to you.

Why do you think you should have the ability to understand God anyway? Maybe you don't Maybe he doesn't exist. You don't know.. yet you make claims about him/it anyway.

Woah now, hold up. I don't claim to understand God. I claim to understand Jesus and the reason he was put here for us.
I may make whatever claims I wish outside of understanding God. That is why it is a belief and why we do not persecute people for religious beliefs in America and many other places around the world.

So destroy Satan already.. sheesh.. what is this, a game??

Yes, I think satan is tired of waiting. But I think it is best if God holds off and tries to help as many people as He can. So satan can wait a little longer IMO.

Hehe, satan can wait for much longer as far as I am concerned.

 

[warpus]

If you don't test my faith I cannot understand why it is so hard to believe.

Do you find it hard to believe in Vishnu or Xenu? It is hard for you to believe in these beings, right? Well, that is the same way I feel about a supernatural Jesus.

And would I want to test your faith? That is not what I have been doing in this thread, if you've viewed it as such.

I am saying I have evidence he watches over us. Why you should listen to me is up to you. I can say my God is 100% truth.

I hear exactly the same thing from people who believe entirely different things than you. Unless one of you can come up with some evidence, all your claims will remain categorized under 'pure speculation & fantasy'

Of course it's up to me. And if I hear 100 people each making a different claim about the nature of reality, but none of them can offer any sort of evidence that their point of view is correct, then of course I will dismiss all 100 as "BS".

King Flevance, your point of view doesn't stand out in the least. I see it no different as the other 99. The first to produce proof will get my attention. I am not going to pick one with blind faith alone.

Woah now, hold up. I don't claim to understand God. I claim to understand Jesus and the reason he was put here for us.

Wasn't Jesus God though?

Besides, anyone making claims about God without backing it up doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. No offense, but if I were to take you seriously, I'd also have to take the Muslims, Scientologists, Hindus, etc. seriously. . which ends up in a lot of conflict.

Yes, I think satan is tired of waiting. But I think it is best if God holds off and tries to help as many people as He can. So satan can wait a little longer IMO.

Wouldn't he help the most people by destroying Satan altogether? Or perhaps the things you speak of weren't meant to be taken literally?

 

[CartesianFart]

Only one positive thing can be said with the Bible. It doesn't contain any lies. The authors fully believed in what they wrote.

I don't know about that statement can be plausible on the fact that we don't absolutely know for certain whether it was politically motivated or just pure revelation.

No, faith isn't honest.

All text is honest.It rest on the readers who believes it.

 

[King Flevance]

Do you find it hard to believe in Vishnu or Xenu? It is hard for you to believe in these beings, right? Well, that is the same way I feel about a supernatural Jesus.

Actually, I find it rediculous in those cases. But I see what you mean. My theory is something for other Christians to try and relate to. I just grabbed it out of the aethiest's mentality. We are all human, and try to communicate to one another the same way. I would like for others to 'follow the path to salvation' but it is not my choice to make. It is very hard to be a christian and see people not able to believe.

I apologize if that is offensive.

And would I want to test your faith? That is not what I have been doing in this thread, if you've viewed it as such.

This 'theory' came from people trying to convince me blind faith exists. And I say that is impossible. A better word for it is 'fake faith' exists. Even I had the two mixed up. Satan was trying to pull wool over people's eyes when testing their faith. I dug into my faith and found this theory of why it is so hard to believe so blindly. But I believe I am able to have say over my own destiny because of Jesus.
That sounds looney I know, but the Lord works in mysterious ways. Because I don't have much scripture memorized yet. So, I don't have that tool to use only what I have learned so far from the bible. It is just easy to see why some things are in the bible IMO. Jesus's teachings helps you live a better life and we must have faith in him to lead us to salvation in the end. And I try to use them in my life because I think the bible and Jesus are self-evident if you keep a watchful eye on them.

I hear exactly the same thing from people who believe entirely different things than you. Unless one of you can come up with some evidence, all your claims will remain categorized under 'pure speculation & fantasy'

Sorry about that. Honestly, I am. All I can do is say to take an understanding of the bible and put faith in Jesus to guide you to the right path.

Of course it's up to me. And if I hear 100 people each making a different claim about the nature of reality, but none of them can offer any sort of evidence that their point of view is correct, then of course I will dismiss all 100 as "BS".

I don't think that wise pesonally. A life without faith is a life without reason. Wisdom comes from my Jesus in the bible from God. And I value it more than anything this world can offer me.

King Flevance, your point of view doesn't stand out in the least. I see it no different as the other 99. The first to produce proof will get my attention. I am not going to pick one with blind faith alone.

Exactly, it is the another part of the 99%. AFAIK, the others are only 99. My proof is Jesus and the Holy Spirit for the extra 1%.

Wasn't Jesus God though?

I don't think so. That is hard to say exactly IMO. I think he was the Son of God and man. He had a personal relationship to God. As well as a personal relationship to man. He had an understanding of God. And he tried to relate the Will of God to man thrugh his teachings. This is why he had the apostles record everything down. He was a prophet, the ultimate prophet for men and women that wish to align themselves with God over mankind's sins.

One day the bible says satan will have a child too with man. This goes into the Book of Revelations more. This child of satan will gain trust over mankind by establishing world peace or something like that. This will happen after the rapture which I am still uncertain on the details about all of that part of the bible. There is alot of heavy symbolism in it. I need to learn more about it myself honestly. I am going to look into more of it soon. You guys got me thinking about stuff.
I may blow my preachers mind when I start wanting to get into it more. I have many other christians in my life that uderstand that book better than I do though. That is a book I need alot of help on.

Besides, anyone making claims about God without backing it up doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. No offense, but if I were to take you seriously, I'd also have to take the Muslims, Scientologists, Hindus, etc. seriously. . which ends up in a lot of conflict.

Anyone making claims about God without backing it up doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. I am just making claims about the reasoning behind Jesus's teachings.

No offense, but if I were to take you seriously, I'd also have to take the Muslims, Scientologists, Hindus, etc. seriously. . which ends up in a lot of conflict.

None taken.

Wouldn't he help the most people by destroying Satan altogether? Or perhaps the things you speak of weren't meant to be taken literally?

Not sure. This is all just hypothetical and a good way to help christians communicate their beliefs better.

EDIT: These questions are getting really hard now.

 

[warpus]

Actually, I find it rediculous in those cases. But I see what you mean. My theory is something for other Christians to try and relate to. I just grabbed it out of the aethiest's mentality. We are all human, and try to communicate to one another the same way. I would like for others to 'follow the path to salvation' but it is not my choice to make. It is very hard to be a christian and see people not able to believe

Of course it's ridiculous to you, as you're not Hindu. Now you know how I feel when you mention a supernatural Jesus to me - it is ridiculous in my eyes... as are Vishnu or Xenu.

why it is so hard to believe so blindly

It is easy for some people. It is impossible to do in my case.

I think the bible and Jesus are self-evident

If these ideas are self-evident then why weren't they arrived at in other parts of the world, independently?

Sorry about that. Honestly, I am. All I can do is say to take an understanding of the bible and put faith in Jesus to guide you to the right path.

Why Jesus? Why not Vishnu? If I asked a Hindu the same question, he would point me in the direction of a Hindu holy text. Why should I believe you over him? I have no reason to.

I don't think that wise pesonally. A life without faith is a life without reason. Wisdom comes from my Jesus in the bible from God. And I value it more than anything this world can offer me.

But you're not getting what I'm trying to say. I can look at all the religious texts that exist in the world, but what then? Which one is right? I can spend all my life studying all of them, but since all of them rely on blind faith, I don't know which one is right, out of the hundreds.. So I assume that they're all wrong.

Pretend you know nothing of Christianity or any other religion on the planet. Somebody shows you all the different religious texts that exist. You sit down, start going through all the books, and attempt to find the one that is right. How do you do this? You claim that Christianity is self-evident, therefore there must be a way for you to pick out the Bible from all the other books.

I am asking you to show me how this could be accomplished.

My proof is Jesus

I haven't met Jesus so he wouldn't be proof in my eyes.

 

[Smidlee]

Wouldn't he help the most people by destroying Satan altogether? Or perhaps the things you speak of weren't meant to be taken literally?

Bush had this idea. If you remove Saddam from power this would help out the people of Iraq the most. So far it doesn't seems to be working out that way. So what if satan is not our worst enemy but ourselves. I hate to admit it but sometimes people get the ruler they deserve. Satan could be one of them.

 

[Margim]

I've discussed with this with my believing friends, but I think it is interesting enough to start a thread about it.

Basically, Christians (and many other believers) say that you have to believe in God, if you want to go to Heaven. God won't take you in if you don't believe in Him, they say. OK, let's accept it. Unfortunately, then the whole faith doesn't have any sense:

1) God created the Universe (one way or another) and he also created us humans (one way or another).
2) He gave us rational mind, which seeks the truth through evidence, logic and facts.
3) He don't give as any hard evidence of his existence.
4) Thus to believe in God means you have to deny your very essence as a rational being. You have to believe in something without evidence, which is illogical and unreasonable.

So, why did he create us this way - why he gave us the rational mind, if it in fact distance us from Him? Or, analogously, why don't he give us any hard evidence of his existence?

Of course, there is also the cynical answer that he created us this way for fun, but that would contradict the common belief that God is righteous.

Well, I'm late to the party - again. But my 2c

This entire argument makes the modernistic assumption that 'making sense' is actually be all and end all of the human experience. Science and rationality demand senses, objectifiability, proofs and reasons.

Simply allow for the small possibility that humans can't actually work out how everything in the universe happens, and you have a possiblity for God.

 

[King Flevance]

Bush had this idea. If you remove Saddam from power this would help out the people of Iraq the most. So far it doesn't seems to be working out that way. So what if satan is not our worst enemy but ourselves. I hate to admit it but sometimes people get the ruler they deserve. Satan could be one of them.

Bush is scary with Hezzbulah(sp?) threatening WWIII. I am starting to see how the war in Iraq helped some. Bolded part is interesting. Hopefully, this war will stalemate again soon. That is a thick web of diplomacy over there.

Hopefully with a balanced system over here now with a democratic congress (supposedly using old republican views and new democratic understandings) we can get a better view on what needs to be done before we pull out. We stirred up a hornet's nest over there. Only time will tell.