Gold balancing issues

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro

I confirmed it. It's beacuse 1 from ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges tag offset -1.

I will just have to take out the -1 since the museum can actually make money.

 

[Necratoid]

I realize some of this requires events and is not the skill set of the C2C staff apparently... but has anyone considered the problem is that the populous is acting unrealistally? What I mean is that the more , meaning wealth, sitting around the more likely other people will try to relieve you of it... or spend it themselves.

Realistically a civiliation with hundreds of times its annual income (before spending anything on , , or ) is going to attract all kinds of attention by others. Raiders and theives will come after your and stuff. Beggers will flood in looking for hand outs. People will jump the borders to get their chunk of your pie.

From inside your Civ people should be deciding on things to spend your money on... as you can't if you have that much sitting around. Nobels will spend it on their own pet projects... which may be useless statues/monuments of/to themselves or useful things like spending stupid huge amounts of to add culture to buildings and wonders or spends 10 times your turn pre // in on researching a 1% of a tech you can't actually research yet (due to lack of required techs, won't that be useful in 5-10,000 turns!) Maybe some 'do-gooder' trust fund baby just spend twice the rush cost on upgrade some random barbarian city with a random building.

A way to nerf stupid huge sitting around is the have people decide to spend it for you... try making a specialist 'Beggar' that adds - to the city and maybe a negative or cost. You get these in random cities when you get X times your unmodded per turn in the bank.

That or make them super specialists that spawn when you pass a turn and automatically attach to a city before you can respond. The chance for them to spawn is altered by how much you have relative to your pre // modified rate:, your active borders civic (closed lowers the spawn chance, open raises it, no borders will heavily increase the spawn rate.) Having less relative to your per turn generation rate with make them leave or morph into something that actually adds to the city... in short the lack of hand outs means they either leave or get a job. That or they disappear and add some population progress to the city.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Personally since the recent changes of just -1:gold" for "civic" buildings I have been hovering between 80% to 30% science. Has anyone else had excess gold problems since the change?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I realize some of this requires events and is not the skill set of the C2C staff apparently... but has anyone considered the problem is that the populous is acting unrealistally? What I mean is that the more , meaning wealth, sitting around the more likely other people will try to relieve you of it... or spend it themselves.

Realistically a civiliation with hundreds of times its annual income (before spending anything on , , or ) is going to attract all kinds of attention by others. Raiders and theives will come after your and stuff. Beggers will flood in looking for hand outs. People will jump the borders to get their chunk of your pie.

From inside your Civ people should be deciding on things to spend your money on... as you can't if you have that much sitting around. Nobels will spend it on their own pet projects... which may be useless statues/monuments of/to themselves or useful things like spending stupid huge amounts of to add culture to buildings and wonders or spends 10 times your turn pre // in on researching a 1% of a tech you can't actually research yet (due to lack of required techs, won't that be useful in 5-10,000 turns!) Maybe some 'do-gooder' trust fund baby just spend twice the rush cost on upgrade some random barbarian city with a random building.

A way to nerf stupid huge sitting around is the have people decide to spend it for you... try making a specialist 'Beggar' that adds - to the city and maybe a negative or cost. You get these in random cities when you get X times your unmodded per turn in the bank.

That or make them super specialists that spawn when you pass a turn and automatically attach to a city before you can respond. The chance for them to spawn is altered by how much you have relative to your pre // modified rate:, your active borders civic (closed lowers the spawn chance, open raises it, no borders will heavily increase the spawn rate.) Having less relative to your per turn generation rate with make them leave or morph into something that actually adds to the city... in short the lack of hand outs means they either leave or get a job. That or they disappear and add some population progress to the city.

We now have an event modder.

Personally since the recent changes of just -1:gold" for "civic" buildings I have been hovering between 80% to 30% science. Has anyone else had excess gold problems since the change?

No.

 

[Koshling]

Personally since the recent changes of just -1:gold" for "civic" buildings I have been hovering between 80% to 30% science. Has anyone else had excess gold problems since the change?

It's much more under control now. So far I can still maintain 100% in my V17 game, but I'm not even into Ancient yet so that's not surprising. In my (ctrl-short-R'd) late industrial game I am in a huge gold deficit situation now, that would have called for different building choices had I played the entire game under the new assets, so I think it's a lot better.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Good feedback Koshling.

Who knew just adding -1 to a bunch of buildings would do the trick. I was expecting to have to give more - to specific buildings (I still may have to in the future). I am probably not going to change it until after v18 is out so the general public can test with only -1 to buildings.

 

[EldrinFal]

I'm approaching the Classical Age in the game I started and the is good so far. Had to lower Science to 40% at one point with the animals I had subdued. With 3 cities now, capital at size 6, my income is slowly improving, but still at 70% Science. Will see how things work out into the Classical age.

My game is a bit skewed though since I play Raging Barbs. Out of 10 AI, only half survived this far (which is FAR better than the near 100% mortality rate before!) but I haven't met any of them yet. We have all been hunkering down to defend against the barbs until most recently when their spawn stopped and I have better units to use.

 

[ori]

We now have an event modder.

Seriously though: its trivial to add events that start at a certain treasury size and that, well remove money - if you have any ideas please drop them in the event ideas thread and I'll get to it in due course - still working on volcano stuff right now

As for the topic at hand here: just some random thoughts:

Really a well developed city should have more trade than some random backwater city - thus culture level should affect trade route income in cities. Also to reflect the need for propaganda at home and on the front I'd make the culture slider affect war weariness, in that it reduces WW at a certain steady rate every turn, the higher the culture rate is the more.

As for espionage: really I dislike the concept as done in the original game, however the fact that crime buildings and punishment buildings affect this here would allow a redefinition. How about regarding it as a security investment (both domestic and external, i.e. combining both policing and espionage). As such on a local level it should be reflected by inefficiency caused by criminal activity. E.g. one could envision a system were you need local espionage points to combat crime. Crime being defined as a production and commerce waste. This should grow by population in the city. E.g. lets say you have a population of 10 in a city this will lead to say a waste of 20% of and 20% of . Additionally I'd add :angry: for every say 10% of non-offset crime. In a size 1 city this should be more like 2%. You could offset that by generating in the city, say 1 reduces crime waste by 0.5%.
Now of course it should also offer some rewards if you exceed the required level locally not sure what to do there (apart from maybe additional for living in a safe police state ) - in any case it would allow for a choice as to whether to use the espionage slider or rely on local buildings to reduce crime - there will be some tipping point...

 

[Koshling]

Also to reflect the need for propaganda at home and on the front I'd make the culture slider affect war weariness, in that it reduces WW at a certain steady rate every turn, the higher the culture rate is the more.

I like the concept BUT having it directly reduce war weariness each tun while still in a war would present tuning difficulties since it could easily totally negate WW at some stages of the game and be irrelevant at others. I prefer the slider to reduce the RATE of WW increase from war activities while still at war, and increase the RATE of recovery when at peace - i.e. - both act as percentage modifiers so that they auto-scale to the era/game size/etc.

 

[Necratoid]

I'd say if you have enough extra sitting around it should increase the rate of gained on techs that are already researched. Or maybe just give the most common tech you don't have researched points every turn. A point for every extra point you have for every Civ, you are in contact with, that has that tech already. It only works on one tech at a time.

Basically you have a bunch of guys sitting around with nothing to do validating their pay checks with... so they start gathering stories and rumours about how great tech X is. This should help make all those 2-3 city rebel groups do something besides take up processor bandwidth, whine and beg for my techs, and make other groups mad I'm not declaring war on some group I've never heard of in some far cornor of the world, I've never seen before.

"No guys, I would not like to declare war on a possibly imaginary group somewhere I've never heard of that will take me 200 turns to get near (with then hopelessly under powered units) if I fight through the five other nations.. that you'll made peace with in three turns."

Anyway, for a building to suck up , how about once you have all the gold/copper/iron/silver smiths built you get a further option build a unit 'X smith' that blings up random buildings increasing their culture and per turn gold cost, but cost takes several turns and sacrifices the units. Limited national units for control. Same with stone/marble/obsidian. This seems like a realistic thing Civs with too much would spend it on. You can only build said units build them in places with that kind of smith/mason. Increase turns cost for distance from material source.

Granted it should only work on major and or government/religious buildings (blinging out the hovels is going to annoy the upper class). Actually gold plating/leafing the slums made of Obsidian/marble would probably add an entirely new hate factor in the diplomacy screen.

Okay this means makes random upgraded versions of buildings (so only one metal and one stone upgrade, one for both on one building) and coding in various bonuses based on the materials used.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Necratoid

This concept of to I think would be better off as a building type. Such as giving building like the intelligence agency this ability. It could work like the arena were it converts X% of into . But in this case it would be X% of into . What do you guys think?

 

[ori]

not sure how this would make anyone use the espionage slider more though - the science slider will necessarily provide more science I guess...

 

[EldrinFal]

@Necratoid

This concept of to I think would be better off as a building type. Such as giving building like the intelligence agency this ability. It could work like the arena were it converts X% of into . But in this case it would be X% of into . What do you guys think?

Well I don't think Science needs any more boosting. I've said it in other threads, but compared to the number of buildings in C2C, Science just goes too fast imho. It's not that I want each tech to take a ton of turns, but when I have, for example, 10 buildings I want to make in a city, each taking 5 turns, that's 50 turns to make them all. A whole lot of new techs can be discovered in those 50 turns that may very well obsolete some of the buildings I wanted to make.

If you have extra then you're supposed to be using Spies on Spy Missions. The "extra" points you have applies to espionage defense and improves how much access you have to AI cities/information. So I wouldn't say they are sitting on their thumbs

 

[Nevets_]

One thing that would be nice (probably too difficult to code, though) would be to have another level of espionage that you can reach with a country (like the level which lets you see their current research) that would increase the rate of tech diffusion for any techs they had but you don't. This would work like a passive form of tech-stealing that advanced nations couldn't prevent (short of investing massive amounts of money into increasing their espionage advantage) and give a leg-up on weaker nations.

For research going too fast, I think one thing that could be done would be to normalize the research / cultural bonuses of the language techs to Trade Language or Interpreters; so that civic would get no bonuses / penalties, and early ones would get penalties / later ones would get bonuses. A -25% penalty in the early game would also make moving the sliders more of an option, since you are only giving up 0.75 per . And with more buildings having - yields now, you could build a building that gives you +1 -1, then change your sliders to make +1 more and come out ahead.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Nevets

What would negative research do? In early game I could see AI possibly not being able to research at all if we are in the negative science.

 

[Nightguard]

Playing through my v17 (not currently using the SVN system at the moment), I've come across one thing that I think makes a huge difference in the speed of the game, both in the rate at which science is researched and the rate at which gold can be earned when not at 100% science, and that is the number of +trade route civics available in the early game. In particulary, it seems as though every since AI nation takes Open Borders as soon as it's available, because +2 trade routes is huge when you really only have 1 or 2 per city already. I can see wanting to make sure that the Open Borders civic is desirable, but personally, it seems like this is a bit too much of a push for it. There are a number of other civics that also give benefits to economy, and then have +trade route bonus on top of it. With these scaled back a bit, it might help alleviate the issue of teching up too fast that some people are having, as well as help keep gold production in balance.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Playing through my v17 (not currently using the SVN system at the moment), I've come across one thing that I think makes a huge difference in the speed of the game, both in the rate at which science is researched and the rate at which gold can be earned when not at 100% science, and that is the number of +trade route civics available in the early game. In particulary, it seems as though every since AI nation takes Open Borders as soon as it's available, because +2 trade routes is huge when you really only have 1 or 2 per city already. I can see wanting to make sure that the Open Borders civic is desirable, but personally, it seems like this is a bit too much of a push for it. There are a number of other civics that also give benefits to economy, and then have +trade route bonus on top of it. With these scaled back a bit, it might help alleviate the issue of teching up too fast that some people are having, as well as help keep gold production in balance.

I never bother with the border civics, leaving it on what ever the default is. I still have the problem with techs happening to fast.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I still have the problem with techs happening to fast.

Sorry if you said already, but what speed do you play on?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sorry if you said already, but what speed do you play on?

Snail.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Snail.

I guess the best way to fix that would be reducing the benefit for the language civic. Right now it goes 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%, 100%, maybe we could reduce in half to say 2%, 5%, 10%, 25%, 50%. What do you think? It would still give a science benefit but at around half the rate of before.