Gold balancing issues

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Except that with the latest buildings espionage is broken. The AI does not consider the espionage down side to buildings and end up with no espionage points something that used to just accrue through out the game. The chance of success of a spy mission is based on the total espionage points you have compared to the total your target has. With the new buildings most AI have zero espionage points.

We've tried to revitalize Culture but we're still using really unproven New Methods instead of looking at the Core CIV IV/BtS ways and making them stronger. Fixed Borders, Realistic Culture Spread are all really relatively new methods game wise. Now that they have been used and reworked I believe we are finding out that their premise was flawed in terms of Core game mechanics. Instead of enhancing Culture and Espionage they actually weakened them. I'm actually in favor of them being removed (Please!, don't throw stones now, I know no one likes to have less choices, I'm that way too, but if it's destroying a core game feature/design then something has to give).

I think Fixed Borders is working but realistic Cultural Spread is not there yet. Yes both have changed the way culture works but I don't see it as having broken it completely if at all. And, as far as I can see neither has had any effect on espionage.

I personally would love to see tile flipping from Culture come back to it's roots, Culture Units reinstated (entertainers, artists, and the Culture Bomb). Only this time working on the AI to be Better at utilizing them (they did use them in the past but not as often as the player.) And those that abused them came and started declaring to the forum that they were eXpliots and Cheats, so the Modders killed them off. Those units were not the problem. The players that overused them and then cried foul was the real problem. Helping the AI to be more adept at their usage was the real solution but it was discarded.

If the AI used a Great artist (Culture bomb) on it's border city to claim some of your border tiles the player would have a fit. But when you did it to the AI it was Oh So sweet! Until you realized that the AI wasn't as good as you at building and using those units. Then it became an eXploit and a cheat. That was wrong thinking. Instead of helping the AI use them better we killed them off instead to assuage our egos. And our willingness to cheat and not be held accountable for our actions. We weakened our foe by taking away some of his options/tools. Lets give him back his options and tools so that we Have to guard against him taking our tiles..

I agree that the removal of the cultural bomb units was a mistake. A better solution in my opinion would have been to
1) get the AI to use them and
2) remove the part that reduced anarchy in the recently conquered city. Or make it manditory and have the AI do it also.


Other changes like the Great Farmer and the random discovery of resources like stone have broken the trade system. The latter has been around since RoM 1.something and I have complained ever since. Just not as often or as loudly as Joseph.

 

[EldrinFal]

Other changes like the Great Farmer and the random discovery of resources like stone have broken the trade system. The latter has been around since RoM 1.something and I have complained ever since. Just not as often or as loudly as Joseph.

(sort of off-topic but it addresses what DH said)

As a player, the Great Farmer is obviously nice to have. But as someone looking at the broader scope of the game, it is OP and should be limited to a greater degree. You mentioned before the idea of a National Wonder building that spawns a single Farmer, or even a WW Unit or Hero that can be built once maybe twice, and that is all you get for the game. I think that is a good idea. Another option would be for a certain Tech discovery, the player gets a free Great Farmer unit. This could be in conjunction with the NW / WW or stand alone. Maybe it happens for 2-3 major agricultural related techs only (Agriculture, Vertical Farming, some future tech).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

(sort of off-topic but it addresses what DH said)

As a player, the Great Farmer is obviously nice to have. But as someone looking at the broader scope of the game, it is OP and should be limited to a greater degree. You mentioned before the idea of a National Wonder building that spawns a single Farmer, or even a WW Unit or Hero that can be built once maybe twice, and that is all you get for the game. I think that is a good idea. Another option would be for a certain Tech discovery, the player gets a free Great Farmer unit. This could be in conjunction with the NW / WW or stand alone. Maybe it happens for 2-3 major agricultural related techs only (Agriculture, Vertical Farming, some future tech).

On this and based on an event suggestion. I think that there should be an espionage mission that allows you to steal a sample of strategic plant or animals resources and gives you two special units that can place that resource and are consumed when doing so. I think the only resources necessary would be horses/camels/elephants and rubber. It does not make sense for the mineral resources.

 

[AIAndy]

So what about this:
Your national culture advances through cultural ages depending on the accumulated amount of culture points.
Each cultural age is divided into four parts:

• The dawn of the age
• The rise of the age
• The zenith of the age
• The waning of the age

Most culture buildings, world wonders and heroes should have high cultural requirements and comparatively low tech requirements.
Maybe also add culture requirements to some techs.

 

[BlueGenie]

I still like AIAndy's suggestion, more and more, for the culture and making it more important.

As for the Great Farmer my suggestion would be:

Remove the Great Farmer.
Add a new unit: Soil Surveyor. He/she can survey a plot (consumed on used) which places a temporary Survey Farm, Survey Pasture, Survey Camp, or Survey Plantation (By Type, aka Wheat, Horse, Deer, Incense) on the plot (reduced yields, increased chance of spawning resource, upgrades to Farm, Pasture, Camp, Plantation after X turns regardless of if plot is worked or not). Only resources you have access to can be surveyed for. This gives you a CHANCE to get a resource you've traded for but it's not a certainty like it is now. Might even require more than once of the resource to be able to survey for it, or having several might give access to another Survey improvement with higher odds of planting the resource.

This is the same suggestion that I had for a Prospector type guy some time ago.

And again, really like AIAndy's culture suggestion.

If you need some help in creating the improvement I might be able to find some time to assist. Those should be relatively easy to make, just a tedious work.

Cheers

 

[EldrinFal]

On this and based on an event suggestion. I think that there should be an espionage mission that allows you to steal a sample of strategic plant or animals resources and gives you two special units that can place that resource and are consumed when doing so. I think the only resources necessary would be horses/camels/elephants and rubber. It does not make sense for the mineral resources.

You don't think an espionage mission would make it too easy since you can conduct as many as you want? Or is this a 1 time success espionage mission?

Er... why rubber and not any other plant? It sounded like you were talking about a thief going in to steal the animal, but then you tossed rubber in there

Speaking of raising the importance of Espionage, what if there was a Spy/Thief type unit that could destroy certain bonus plots? For good. Salt a wheat field, torch the olive orchard, poison the cow herd, etc.?? Couple this with a bonus to DEFENSE against spy attacks from the Espionage slider and you have a compelling reason to keep up your Spy network!

Was also pondering the ability to STEAL bonus plots, but wondering if that would be exploited by moving a bunch of bonuses to a single city? I suppose it's no worse than the Great Farmer though atm.

 

[Nevets_]

What about changing the Great Farmer to make the resource he generates completely random? You'd have a chance to grab a resource you don't already have, but you'd still have to trade / conquer for most of what you want. And it would be really neat if the chances of the resource you got was effected by the terrain, so if you used him on a desert tile you won't get a cow or rice, but there is a good chance you get a camel or incense.

You could even do the same thing with a 'Great Miner' for mineral resources.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You don't think an espionage mission would make it too easy since you can conduct as many as you want? Or is this a 1 time success espionage mission?

Er... why rubber and not any other plant? It sounded like you were talking about a thief going in to steal the animal, but then you tossed rubber in there

I forgot my assumption - you can only do the espionage mission for stuff you don't have.

Rubber, used to be a needed requirement for all units from WW1 to Plastics. I don't know if it is true now. However tee and rubber are historic examples of this being done.

What about changing the Great Farmer to make the resource he generates completely random? You'd have a chance to grab a resource you don't already have, but you'd still have to trade / conquer for most of what you want. And it would be really neat if the chances of the resource you got was effected by the terrain, so if you used him on a desert tile you won't get a cow or rice, but there is a good chance you get a camel or incense.

You could even do the same thing with a 'Great Miner' for mineral resources.

Just as bad as it is now if you ask me.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II

I still think Culture and Espionage have their uses and should not be taken out. However making them stronger or re-purpose them to be useful is a must. I personally like AIAndy's idea of making some buildings require a minimum culture level.

In fact it would be interesting to apply that idea to other factors such as Science, Espionage, Health, Happiness, Gold, Food, Production, Commerce. Making things unlocked at different levels of things would the game that much more interesting.



This I disagree with. I have a bunch more techs I want to add. This is on reason why there are still gaps between the techs on the tech tree. For someone who said you a agree with "more is more" you sure want to take out a lot of stuff.

@Hydro,
If what you got out of what I was trying to say is" take stuff out" then I didn't eXpress myself well enough. And I think if you reread it you will realize that too. (I'm a poor typer and sometimes I leave parts of thoughts out).

I Know you have things to finish. But it also seems that when a critical discussion about balancing and refining occurs you take it personal as "someone wants to cut my stuff back". And that isn't the focus of the discussion. But already instead of delving into and clarifying what the Gold issue really is you've already made changes to gold producing buildings and pushed it to the SVN (if I read your post correctly). And to be frank it was a knee jerk reaction from you. Why? Because it's maybe not the right solution? And it becomes just another layer on this Onion to try to peel off to get to the Core problem and it's solution.

You are Blessed with a ton of Ideas and Concepts, but even those need to be refined after they've been introduced and used for awhile. And we/you are at that point in this Mods progress. Every Artist needs a critic from time to time.

Another problem is focus. We participants to this mod start a discussion and start to develop some ideas and then we get sidetracked by another pressing issue and the 1st issue is left lying on the "side of the road" like roadkill. I hope we don't do this to this problem. AIAndy has some thought provoking ideas as does Koshling. And DH agrees with me about bringing some "old" ways back into play.

We will figure this out and this Mod will be even better because we did think it thru.

If this Mod didn't mean much to me I really wouldn't go to the effort of these lengthy posts or being "stubborn and persistent", but it DOES mean that much to me. And if all I can contribute is some constructive criticism then that is what I'll try to do. Until you all tell me to go take a hike. (It's been done before so it won't be the 1st time)

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

But already instead of delving into and clarifying what the Gold issue really is you've already made changes to gold producing buildings and pushed it to the SVN (if I read your post correctly). And to be frank it was a knee jerk reaction from you. Why? Because it's maybe not the right solution? And it becomes just another layer on this Onion to try to peel off to get to the Core problem and it's solution.

Part of the gold problem is me building up one side of the buildings without balancing them on the other side. I had been waiting for Thunderbrd to do the other side, but since he has not been around, I went back to my original plan of the "Sim City" method. This method takes awhile to implement, which is why I have put it off for so long. During this time everyone has been getting use to the abundant gold and have even complained about it.

While to you it may seen like a " knee jerk" reaction, its more of me finally getting my butt around to doing what I had always intended to do, which is giving civic buildings (police, hospitals, fire stations, schools, power, water, garbage, roads, etc) a cost for building them.

So far in my testing, even without all them implemented now too much gold is taken away. Which means I need to balance them. Its very hard to find the balance since the cost of a building in sim city is much different than in C2C.

That being said I think this method will at least fix the problems I caused, such as countering all the + buildings. The deeper issues still need to be dealt with but I can at least help reduce the problem I caused.

In short there is not one answer to the gold problem since there are many factors causing it. So please give me a chance to test my solution. Not everything I propose/implement stays in the game, which is one thing a like about C2C, its like a testing lab for new ideas.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I can buy that.

Unfortunately for me I still havn't got SVN figured out, so your updates are not available to me to test. Which is what i really like to do.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

I can buy that.

Unfortunately for me I still havn't got SVN figured out, so your updates are not available to me to test. Which is what i really like to do.

JosEPh

That is too bad since I really need testers.

 

[AIAndy]

And again, really like AIAndy's culture suggestion.

If you need some help in creating the improvement I might be able to find some time to assist. Those should be relatively easy to make, just a tedious work.

Cheers

I have made the code that accumulates national culture and first code that sets and retrieves a current cultural age and its segments (dawn, rise, zenith, waning).

What needs to be done:

• Adding a new XML file for cultural ages (DLL code and schema) and the proper execution of the new tags.
• Filling out that XML (pure XML work based on the schema in the previous step).
• Adding DLL code for prereq tags based on cultural age and segment to unit, building, tech, maybe others.
• Adding those tags to units, buildings, techs where appropriate.
• Adding a UI in Python for the national culture, cultural age and segment (probably best represented as a progress bar in the main screen).

If you can help with some of that, that would be useful.

Some decisions that remain:

• Should the cultural ages always be in the same sequence or should there be alternatives (like choosing between several after your previous cultural age has waned) or even a kind of tech tree?
• Should the prereq for a unit, building or tech mean that you can only build it while you are in that cultural age or afterwards as well?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Adding those tags to units, buildings, techs where appropriate.

This may be hard since I am the king of "force override" when it comes to buildings. Let me know what buildings get changed and with what changes and I can make sure any "force override" buildings I have get changed.

 

[AIAndy]

This may be hard since I am the king of "force override" when it comes to buildings. Let me know what buildings get changed and with what changes and I can make sure any "force override" buildings I have get changed.

I bow before the king and hope that he helps me in this great undertaking.
Because inevitably that will interact with several of the things you do, like the different culture buildings.

The idea is that the cultural age represents the progress and way of art, culture and society from paleolithic to postmodern and beyond. Whenever a cultural age ends, you get a choice from possible ages that could follow after and therefore you have a subset of all possible wonders, heroes and cultures depending on the way you choose.

 

[climat]

:confirmed:

 

[Nevets_]

The idea is that the cultural age represents the progress and way of art, culture and society from paleolithic to postmodern and beyond. Whenever a cultural age ends, you get a choice from possible ages that could follow after and therefore you have a subset of all possible wonders, heroes and cultures depending on the way you choose.

That sounds a lot like the way Civ5 did culture, where you used culture to buy some bonuses, but couldn't afford to buy them all, and some were mutually exclusive. I think that's one of the better ideas they have had.

One suggestion I would make would be to also include Civ5 cost system: it increased the cost of buying the next cultural advance based on the number of cities you had. This would help out smaller civs who can't expand because of terrain or borders, their cities would all be culturally advanced because they don't have any new ones. Civs that are always expanding would need to devote more of their commerce to culture in order to stay competitive, as their 'average' culture would be dragged down by the new cities.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Museum without -1?
Its tags are set like this.

			<CommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>-1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
			</CommerceChanges>
			<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
			</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>

Shouldn't museum give 1 because of <ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges> tag?
Other buildings Hydro changed seem to work properly.

EDIT: Perhaps they offset each other?

I will have to look at that. Thanks for reporting it.

 

[ls612]

2 Ideas, which could be used together or separately;

1. Add a <basemaintenencemodifier> to the GlobalDefines XML, measured in percentages, to fine tune game economic issues. Maybe it could be adjusted by era also.

2. I know in vanilla BtS that each building added x amount of maintainence, could/should we make that number changeable in the BuildingInfos XML?

PS: sorry to bother but has anyone looked at my culture slider suggestion in Nevet's_ thread? I posted it two days ago.

 

[climat]

:confirmed: