Gold balancing issues
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
- Start date
% might be a good idea. I will have to think over that one.Working out great for me. I can't maintain above about 70% research in middle ages now, but it balances nicely with the slider not at either extreme.
Learning to exploit other things (that will need fixing) now! (like cog merchants - I had 2 cities perma building them while I was tech-racing for Astronomy and that was about 90% of my income, which allowed me to push research back to 95% for that period. They just give too much!).
Also can't figure out why the AI didn't research Astronomy itself before I could (it was one of its can-research techs for about 100 turns before I got it). I saved the game so I could analyse that later, since it looks like a tech-path evaulation flaw to me (Astronomy is just SOOO good to get first because Andeaism is massively over-powered due to its associated Wonders and science bonuses [which is a separate issue])
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Not enough gold Period!
Too many buildings with HUGE -gold amounts. And my research slider is down to 30-35%. I'm avoiding -gold and crime bldgs like the Plague. I only build one when I'm literally forced to. I can't even build the Harbor chain anymore. And I built 1 Bandits hide out to get 2 Rogues and then 1 Poison (whatever it was) to get 2 ambushers. And then I really broke down and built 1 Assassin's Den to build 2 assassins. Out of 29 cities in my empire. Other than that I'm building carrot farms and date Plantations for Any kind of gold income. It's making me pull out my thinning hair.
Another thing, the AI isn't building Rogues or Thieves or assassins either. It's 1700 AD in my game and I have Yet to see even 1 of any of the "crime" units. I'm seeing More spies but not an exaggerated amount. About par for a game that didn't have Crime involved.
There are just too many buildings now that give ridiculously high -gold imho. And they once were mainstay buildings that everyone needed especially the AI.
And how can the AI build scores of Town Watchmen at their current cost? And on a side note, didn't realize that Barb TW's could Attack! That came as a surprise when a Barb city sent 5 TW's to attack my new city next to them, they did have 1 archer and 2 spear with the TWs.
I'm struggling to keep my empire afloat and wage a defensive war to boot, while trying Not to fall to far behind in the Tech race. And at 35% research I AM falling behind. I have the 2nd highest # of cities now (due to conquest) but only rank 5th out of 9. And I'm 4th in research, maybe 5th now in that too.
And finally with only 3 crime reducing buildings available there is no way to get crime down. It just does a slow creep every turn. -5 crime for Town Watch,
c'mon man that just suxs. But I Do get -10 for Courthouse, yipee. 
So I guess I should be happy that you all are happy. :/
JosEPh
Too many buildings with HUGE -gold amounts. And my research slider is down to 30-35%. I'm avoiding -gold and crime bldgs like the Plague. I only build one when I'm literally forced to. I can't even build the Harbor chain anymore. And I built 1 Bandits hide out to get 2 Rogues and then 1 Poison (whatever it was) to get 2 ambushers. And then I really broke down and built 1 Assassin's Den to build 2 assassins. Out of 29 cities in my empire. Other than that I'm building carrot farms and date Plantations for Any kind of gold income. It's making me pull out my thinning hair.
Another thing, the AI isn't building Rogues or Thieves or assassins either. It's 1700 AD in my game and I have Yet to see even 1 of any of the "crime" units. I'm seeing More spies but not an exaggerated amount. About par for a game that didn't have Crime involved.
There are just too many buildings now that give ridiculously high -gold imho. And they once were mainstay buildings that everyone needed especially the AI.
And how can the AI build scores of Town Watchmen at their current cost? And on a side note, didn't realize that Barb TW's could Attack! That came as a surprise when a Barb city sent 5 TW's to attack my new city next to them, they did have 1 archer and 2 spear with the TWs.
I'm struggling to keep my empire afloat and wage a defensive war to boot, while trying Not to fall to far behind in the Tech race. And at 35% research I AM falling behind. I have the 2nd highest # of cities now (due to conquest) but only rank 5th out of 9. And I'm 4th in research, maybe 5th now in that too.
And finally with only 3 crime reducing buildings available there is no way to get crime down. It just does a slow creep every turn. -5 crime for Town Watch,
c'mon man that just suxs. But I Do get -10 for Courthouse, yipee. So I guess I should be happy that you all are happy. :/
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Thanks for the feedback guys! 
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
So is the Gold issue really balanced? Or is it set up for accommodating a select setting of difficulty levels, game speeds, and Play options?
JosEPh
JosEPh
I'm working on adding Epic to the list of accomodated game speeds, which will hopefully make you happy.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I can only test for what I personally play at. Thus my personal setting (which I have posted) which are the settings I try to balance things for. However with a bunch of modders all working on the same mod and a constant state of additions its almost impossible to get even my settings balanced. And now you want me to balance EVERY single setting at every single possible speed for every single possible play style and every possible map/scenario?
Remember we voluntarily do this for fun in our free time. We are not payed. I personally do it to make the stuff I always wanted the game to be like. Not to make you or other players happy. If they like the stuff I make then great. If not go play or make your own mod.
But don't piss off the modders or you will end up with no new C2C to play.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I can't believe that you of all ppl went there. :/
Sorry for pissing you off or giving feedback from my point of view the user. I can stop.
JosEPh
Sorry for pissing you off or giving feedback from my point of view the user. I can stop.
JosEPh
I'm with Joseph II, my research slider hasn't been above 35% the whole game and my treasury reserve is pitiful. I'm in the classical era, using SVN version - I can't check the version because my game is not currently loaded, but I updated it about 6 hours ago, so it's recent.
Crime is harsh (especially if you object on a moral basis to crucifying people even in a computer game!), I think the worst problem I have had though was when I researched Writing and not only did my pre-writing beaker producing buildings and myth buildings obsolete, but I got the crime building for forgery in several of my cities and went from +30 income a turn to -100 income per turn, and my research dropped by 100 points.
I could come to enjoy the crime stuff (if it is developed so that I don't have to play as some insane Roman emperor, crucifying people left right and centre), but there's too much negative stuff centred around Writing at this point, including the Forgery crime building, playing on the map type that I do I often have goody huts/islands still up for the taking at this point of the game, and if one gives me Writing before I'm ready for it it's not so much a goody hut as a baddy hut, and gives me a bit of a $(*&%^*&O( OMFG WTH YOU *&^%$(*£ GAME moment.
Please spread some of these "obsoletes x..." type things around different techs so that writing and you know, general literacy, is no longer something to be dreaded and avoided!
Edit to add: do not tell me to turn the difficulty down, I'm already on Settler difficulty in this game!
Crime is harsh (especially if you object on a moral basis to crucifying people even in a computer game!), I think the worst problem I have had though was when I researched Writing and not only did my pre-writing beaker producing buildings and myth buildings obsolete, but I got the crime building for forgery in several of my cities and went from +30 income a turn to -100 income per turn, and my research dropped by 100 points.
I could come to enjoy the crime stuff (if it is developed so that I don't have to play as some insane Roman emperor, crucifying people left right and centre), but there's too much negative stuff centred around Writing at this point, including the Forgery crime building, playing on the map type that I do I often have goody huts/islands still up for the taking at this point of the game, and if one gives me Writing before I'm ready for it it's not so much a goody hut as a baddy hut, and gives me a bit of a $(*&%^*&O( OMFG WTH YOU *&^%$(*£ GAME moment.
Please spread some of these "obsoletes x..." type things around different techs so that writing and you know, general literacy, is no longer something to be dreaded and avoided!
Edit to add: do not tell me to turn the difficulty down, I'm already on Settler difficulty in this game!
Like Crime (Forgery) should/would need Literature rather than Writing. Besides which I'm of a mind to put an equal to sign between Forgery and Counterfeiting in most aspects. If one is about forging/counterfeiting money it's Currency and resource Bullion. If the other is more written agreements, arts, deeds, and such then it might be an idea to start lower in gold reduction and increase it over several technologies; Alphabet for written documents, Construction for deeds, Sculpture for some and Oil Painting for other art.
Or like most Animal Myths and Elder Council/Knowledge Inheritance shouldn't both become obsolete at Writing. Myths, as some already do, might fit better at Literature while Elder Council, *ponders*, Elder Council is really similar or equal to a central administration, like the Admin buildings. Being alongside a Village Hall and Town Hall I can fathom but it might not alongside a City Council. Either way once a pure leadership is established any Elder Council's would obsolete, so my suggestion would be at Monarchy (or at the very latest Aristocracy, in which case City Council should replace it too as one can get City Planning separately from Aristocracy).
Knowledge Inheritance is required to build Elder Council and should therefore, in my opinion, also become obsolete either after or simultaneously with Elder Council. *ponders* I'd actually say Literature would fit better but that might make it hard as Elder Council very well can obsolete after KI then. Is it possible to set more than one condition on Obsoleting? If so Literature and Aristocracy or Monarchy. Otherwise just Aristocracy (as they frown upon "peasants" learning from other sources than they have given them).
I hope this goes to show that I agree with Epona's dislike of everything hinging on Writing.
Cheers
Or like most Animal Myths and Elder Council/Knowledge Inheritance shouldn't both become obsolete at Writing. Myths, as some already do, might fit better at Literature while Elder Council, *ponders*, Elder Council is really similar or equal to a central administration, like the Admin buildings. Being alongside a Village Hall and Town Hall I can fathom but it might not alongside a City Council. Either way once a pure leadership is established any Elder Council's would obsolete, so my suggestion would be at Monarchy (or at the very latest Aristocracy, in which case City Council should replace it too as one can get City Planning separately from Aristocracy).
Knowledge Inheritance is required to build Elder Council and should therefore, in my opinion, also become obsolete either after or simultaneously with Elder Council. *ponders* I'd actually say Literature would fit better but that might make it hard as Elder Council very well can obsolete after KI then. Is it possible to set more than one condition on Obsoleting? If so Literature and Aristocracy or Monarchy. Otherwise just Aristocracy (as they frown upon "peasants" learning from other sources than they have given them).
I hope this goes to show that I agree with Epona's dislike of everything hinging on Writing.
Cheers
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I ma thinking of getting rid of the Myth buildings completely now that we have all the different ways of using the animals. They were intended as an attempt to simulate the late stone age spurt in technology.
What will happen to some of the Mega Fauna Wonders then?
*ponders* Though in doing so you'll also slow down Prehistoric and Ancient Eras a lot as it'll take just that much longer to play through it as most of the research now comes from those Myths. I myself had +18 research from Myths all the way through to Writing. From Cultural Identity (which I always go for fast) until Tribalism, when I could build additional Story Teller's Huts, Knowledge Inheritances, and Elder Councils, that meant that I could increase my science output from ~19-21 to ~45-50 science. From new cities and onwards the percent of science that came from Myths slowly went down, but most likely didn't drop below being ~40% of my total research.
If you do take away the Myths, and their research bonus especially, then either a reduction in research costs after Oral Tradition/Shelter Building until Writing, or increased research rates during Prehistoric/Ancient Eras could be needed, or increasing the effect of the few research buildings that will be left.
Of those I think I'd prefer the latter, possibly coupled with one or two more buildings granting beakers. Otherwise there would be, hmm, three buildings granting research only.
At Tribalism an Annual Tribal Meet could give extra research as the tribes gather and share knowledge.
At Shamanism and Naturopathy Shaman Covens and Druid Covens could be available as those groups share and pool knowledge of the world, this regardless of if the religions are present or not as there's probably not a single place on earth where such groups existed even if the general populace didn't share their outlook on the world.
Cheers.
*ponders* Though in doing so you'll also slow down Prehistoric and Ancient Eras a lot as it'll take just that much longer to play through it as most of the research now comes from those Myths. I myself had +18 research from Myths all the way through to Writing. From Cultural Identity (which I always go for fast) until Tribalism, when I could build additional Story Teller's Huts, Knowledge Inheritances, and Elder Councils, that meant that I could increase my science output from ~19-21 to ~45-50 science. From new cities and onwards the percent of science that came from Myths slowly went down, but most likely didn't drop below being ~40% of my total research.
If you do take away the Myths, and their research bonus especially, then either a reduction in research costs after Oral Tradition/Shelter Building until Writing, or increased research rates during Prehistoric/Ancient Eras could be needed, or increasing the effect of the few research buildings that will be left.
Of those I think I'd prefer the latter, possibly coupled with one or two more buildings granting beakers. Otherwise there would be, hmm, three buildings granting research only.
At Tribalism an Annual Tribal Meet could give extra research as the tribes gather and share knowledge.
At Shamanism and Naturopathy Shaman Covens and Druid Covens could be available as those groups share and pool knowledge of the world, this regardless of if the religions are present or not as there's probably not a single place on earth where such groups existed even if the general populace didn't share their outlook on the world.
Cheers.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Ok so I would like to just give you a break down of my current game. i started it on the day that v22 was released and have updated it via the SVN. Settings are my normal settings I have posted in the favorite settings thread. The important ones are;
Map: C2C PW2f
Size: Large
Speed: Snail
Difficulty: Monarch
Important Settings: Minor Civ, Assimilation, Revolutions
Civ: Rome
Leader: Julius Caesar (Organized / Imperialistic)
Era: Mid- Medieval (Researching Martial Arts)
Date: 876 BC
Turns: 1203/7250
Number of Cities: 15 (10 Roman, 3 Cherokee, 1 Tupi, 1 Chinese)
Gold Reserves: 4520
Gold Per Turn: +31
Science: 100% (+2471)
Culture: 0% (+1441)
Espionage: 0% (+70)
Highest Crime: +196 (In my 2nd founded city)
Lowest Crime: -49 (In my last founded city)
Highest Flammability: +120
Lowest Flammability: -5
Overall the trend is new cities have lower Crime/Flammability and the more mature cities have higher. Which is to be expected.
Overall my expansion started good with 3 quick cities at the mouth of 3 rivers. Then at Chiefdom 3 more. By Despotism I got up to 10 cities through both founding and conquering. I bought one Cherokee city since I had so much extra cash. I was able to bribe my way into peace and have been keeping up great trade routes. My expansion has halted due to limited space in the old world and the great salt/dune interiors of the continent.
I have a good sized army of UU units (Celtic, Sioux, Cheyenne, Hun and Ainu) I probably will try to take out the Tupi or Cherokee before they get too powerful. I am at the top of the list with a score of 1098. However Mali (1052), India (1010) and Russia (1001) are close behind.
You ask how they heck do I have so much wealth? The simple answer is religions. I founded 15 religions so far!! This fact means I have uber research (from monasteries) and thus uber gold. This needs to be fixed.
EDIT: Oh almost forgot to list my civics ...
- Republic
- Vassalage
- Feudal
- Coinage
- Banditry
- Secular (From Shwedago Paya)
- Private
- Landfills
- Open Borders
- Written Tradition
- Interpreters
- Subsistence Agriculture
Note I also have only made 2 heroes (Celtic ones).
Map: C2C PW2f
Size: Large
Speed: Snail
Difficulty: Monarch
Important Settings: Minor Civ, Assimilation, Revolutions
Civ: Rome
Leader: Julius Caesar (Organized / Imperialistic)
Era: Mid- Medieval (Researching Martial Arts)
Date: 876 BC
Turns: 1203/7250
Number of Cities: 15 (10 Roman, 3 Cherokee, 1 Tupi, 1 Chinese)
Gold Reserves: 4520
Gold Per Turn: +31
Science: 100% (+2471)
Culture: 0% (+1441)
Espionage: 0% (+70)
Highest Crime: +196 (In my 2nd founded city)
Lowest Crime: -49 (In my last founded city)
Highest Flammability: +120
Lowest Flammability: -5
Overall the trend is new cities have lower Crime/Flammability and the more mature cities have higher. Which is to be expected.
Overall my expansion started good with 3 quick cities at the mouth of 3 rivers. Then at Chiefdom 3 more. By Despotism I got up to 10 cities through both founding and conquering. I bought one Cherokee city since I had so much extra cash. I was able to bribe my way into peace and have been keeping up great trade routes. My expansion has halted due to limited space in the old world and the great salt/dune interiors of the continent.
I have a good sized army of UU units (Celtic, Sioux, Cheyenne, Hun and Ainu) I probably will try to take out the Tupi or Cherokee before they get too powerful. I am at the top of the list with a score of 1098. However Mali (1052), India (1010) and Russia (1001) are close behind.
You ask how they heck do I have so much wealth? The simple answer is religions. I founded 15 religions so far!! This fact means I have uber research (from monasteries) and thus uber gold. This needs to be fixed.
EDIT: Oh almost forgot to list my civics ...
- Republic
- Vassalage
- Feudal
- Coinage
- Banditry
- Secular (From Shwedago Paya)
- Private
- Landfills
- Open Borders
- Written Tradition
- Interpreters
- Subsistence Agriculture
Note I also have only made 2 heroes (Celtic ones).
This.
As a general principle.
i.e. - at the tech that introduces them crime buildings are always (relatively) mild, but 'tune up' as more relevant techs are discovered. For example forgery is a minor nuisance when you just invented writing, because writing has not become a central facit of the mechanisms by which your society runs. Later techs (code of laws is a good example) leverage writing to add pillars to the important supports of your society, so the impact of forgery goes up (crime(forgery) -1 gold -1 local stability with code of laws).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
My current Noble level Epic speed Giant Mirror (1st time ever used) with 8AI game is at 770AD. Started the same day as Hydro's (for comparison). I tried to mix up my usual research pathing were I am 90% successful in getting Sed Life 1st which in turn allows me to get Tengriism 1st. Didn't happen this time.
I have 287 gold in my treasury and just got it back to a +7/turn. My research level is currently 70%.
I generally found Many religions, but not this game. I finally got Hellenism at 360AD. My decision to use a different tech path than normal cost me all the religions I normally would've had 1st. Like Shaman, Tengrii, Mono, Buddhism, Confucism, and Tao or hellenism. After that I try to avoid founding any more religion except sometimes Christianity. BUT because of the tech tree pating I usually end up with several more.
Because I kept missing out on religions my research was slowed. I was also lagging in # of cities to my 2 neighbors the Cherokee and Tupi, I have the Iroquois leader Deganawida. I just caught up to the Cherokee because they Gifted me a city they tried to place in a hole in my empire. I quickly built another city to completely surround that city. And as I built culture increasing builds in the surrounding cities, while trade tech and goods with the Cherokee, they gave it to me as a Gift.
I have not paid any attention to the crime /non crime builds. I'm playing this game as if I was back in v21 pre-crime. I have not though, built any Bandits Hideouts as neither has my neighbors. I have built 1 assassin's den. Just in case some rogues or thieves do show up. I don't think they will.
Number of cities is 11, much lower than any of my previous games. I rank #1 on the power list and am tied for # of cities from known empires which so far is 3: Cherokee, Tupi and French.
Monarchy, Patrician, Banditry, State church, Church, Subs Ag., Interpreters, Written trad., Garbage any where (have not reached landfills yet), Just got Coinage, And researching to get Republic and Proletariat.
Even though it's 770 AD I'm still Classical Era but approaching Med. Which points out something to me. If Hydro is at Med Era at 870BC how is Snail then balanced? Seems my Epic is more in line timeline wise then his is doesn't it?
I have No heroes.
The Huron Manlet one of the few UU's I have is very weak. As soon as I could upgrade to Ram I did so. It's my Deer, Elephant, Bison, and Horse riders and Axemen that are keeping my borders safe from intrusion.
Important settings Multiple religions, Multiple Production and Research, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders, No REV, No Tech Diffusion, No Vassals.
Not as neat as Hydro's layout but the comparison is there.
JosEPh
I have 287 gold in my treasury and just got it back to a +7/turn. My research level is currently 70%.
I generally found Many religions, but not this game. I finally got Hellenism at 360AD. My decision to use a different tech path than normal cost me all the religions I normally would've had 1st. Like Shaman, Tengrii, Mono, Buddhism, Confucism, and Tao or hellenism. After that I try to avoid founding any more religion except sometimes Christianity. BUT because of the tech tree pating I usually end up with several more.
This is directly related to the placement of religion founding techs in the tech tree. Break up the pathing and you won't get all the religions. So you wouldn't have All the monasteries which do not need changed any further imho. It's the pathing that allows the tech leader in the game to acquire all of them. Of course If you found All you will have a superior advantage for the Whole game. But that is Not the Monasteries fault. It's the clustering effect of the pathing that is the culprit.
Because I kept missing out on religions my research was slowed. I was also lagging in # of cities to my 2 neighbors the Cherokee and Tupi, I have the Iroquois leader Deganawida. I just caught up to the Cherokee because they Gifted me a city they tried to place in a hole in my empire. I quickly built another city to completely surround that city. And as I built culture increasing builds in the surrounding cities, while trade tech and goods with the Cherokee, they gave it to me as a Gift.
I have not paid any attention to the crime /non crime builds. I'm playing this game as if I was back in v21 pre-crime. I have not though, built any Bandits Hideouts as neither has my neighbors. I have built 1 assassin's den. Just in case some rogues or thieves do show up. I don't think they will.
Number of cities is 11, much lower than any of my previous games. I rank #1 on the power list and am tied for # of cities from known empires which so far is 3: Cherokee, Tupi and French.
Monarchy, Patrician, Banditry, State church, Church, Subs Ag., Interpreters, Written trad., Garbage any where (have not reached landfills yet), Just got Coinage, And researching to get Republic and Proletariat.
Even though it's 770 AD I'm still Classical Era but approaching Med. Which points out something to me. If Hydro is at Med Era at 870BC how is Snail then balanced? Seems my Epic is more in line timeline wise then his is doesn't it?
I have No heroes.
The Huron Manlet one of the few UU's I have is very weak. As soon as I could upgrade to Ram I did so. It's my Deer, Elephant, Bison, and Horse riders and Axemen that are keeping my borders safe from intrusion.
Important settings Multiple religions, Multiple Production and Research, No City Limits, No Fixed Borders, No REV, No Tech Diffusion, No Vassals.
Not as neat as Hydro's layout but the comparison is there.
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Thanks for the run down Joseph. Its much better to understand where you are coming from when you break it down like that.
Like I said the fact I can build so many monasteries have bumped me far ahead in techs. I have never been this far ahead so early before. Nor have I founded so many religions in one game. I am guessing conclude that the 2 are related in some way. But I cannot know for sure.
Like I said the fact I can build so many monasteries have bumped me far ahead in techs. I have never been this far ahead so early before. Nor have I founded so many religions in one game. I am guessing conclude that the 2 are related in some way. But I cannot know for sure.
+10% Research in every City you build one Monastery. Building 15 (or 12, depending on what religions you've founded) is +150% (or +120%) percent boost (which is more like +80 to +100% considering other +Research Output things, civics and research buildings, of which Civics along contribute +45%).
Considering that this boost counts on every commerce you have that is converted to Research, yes, I'd say it's very much because of Religions.
The AI Player might understand building the Monasteries but in NO game I've played have I seen the AI actively spreading all it's religions to build Monasteries and boost Research in that way. A Human player with 2 religions can still out tech an AI player with 5 religions.
Having Multiple Religion Spread basically means that the AI will build the Monasteries that it can without spreading any but it's State Religion while a Human player will actively spread ALL possible religions and gain +10% tech from all religions possible in all cities. Massive difference.
Cheers
Considering that this boost counts on every commerce you have that is converted to Research, yes, I'd say it's very much because of Religions.
The AI Player might understand building the Monasteries but in NO game I've played have I seen the AI actively spreading all it's religions to build Monasteries and boost Research in that way. A Human player with 2 religions can still out tech an AI player with 5 religions.
Having Multiple Religion Spread basically means that the AI will build the Monasteries that it can without spreading any but it's State Religion while a Human player will actively spread ALL possible religions and gain +10% tech from all religions possible in all cities. Massive difference.
Cheers
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The mechanics of auto-missionaries is also flawed, at least for the player. It only tries to spread one religion a turn to a city rather than all available.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I do but spreading a new religion to 22 cities and the other 21 religions to one city is time consuming, thank goodness for the Fa Mi Si wonder that means you have 100% chance of sucessfully spreading all religions.
