Gorbachev and Perestroika/Gladnost

[Yeekim]

Funny that in all Eastern Bloc nations but Poland, either a majority or very near a majority of the population both regrets the transition to "democracy" and capitalism.

Will you excuse me while I ?

Did you invent this "fact" yourself or have you got a source?

 

[Tee Kay]

Will you excuse me while I ?

Did you invent this "fact" yourself or have you got a source?

I remember Tekee posting something in OT along those lines.

Ah, here it is. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=342082

If this is indeed what Cheezy was talking about I'd say he exaggerated a bit.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I couldn't find it, actually, so I remembered it somewhat wrong. I did find this, however, during my search, which is also quite interesting, and along the same lines.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1554/hungary-economic-discontent-democracy-communism

EDIT: It appears the two articles cite some of the same data.

 

[Yeekim]

Interesting article. But even while I find Hungary's disillusionment with past changes quite stunning, you were exaggerating quite a bit...

The challenge for Hungary is that, while most Hungarians want democratic values and institutions, few think they have them. For instance, 70% think it is very important to live in a country with honest multiparty elections, but only 17% believe this describes Hungary very well.

When asked to evaluate their nation's switch to capitalism, Hungarians are divided -- 46% said they approve of the move from a state-controlled economy to a market economy, while 42% disapproved.

I will, however, say I am still quite baffled with the latter result.

 

[rollo1066]

Gorby was unlucky. Just as he was about to try to stabalize and restructure with a new Union treaty the coup occured and he lost power. Can't guarantee his plans would have worked but with better luck and less ploting amoung his associates they might have.

 

[warpus]

3. For those who paid attention during the fall of the Soviet Union and communist Russia, what were your views on it at the time? Most the sources from people I know are either 'no opinion' or 'in depth socio-economic analysis' and I'm interested in different opinions.

I'm Polish, and lived under Russian domination in communist Poland for a while before we escaped, so I was like.. F YEAH

I was young when the wall came down and the S.U. fell apart, but I was old enough to understand the basics. As such, I celebrated, as my country was free once again, for the first time in 50 years.

 

[Ajidica]

So for you or you parents, what was life like under communism? I've always been curious about that and most of the accounts I can find are either deeply anti-communist or communist apologists. Was it as bad as American propoganda or conventional wisdom made it out to be?

 

[Quackers]

I think the abandonement of the Breznev doctrine hastened the collapse of the Soviet Union. For once the Eastern European sateliete states were not threatened from Moscow - this meant when Communism fell in these states, the forces of history moved against Russian communism making its fall seem inevitable.

 

[Traitorfish]

To be honest, this is pretty much all you could ever need to know about the whole period:


Link to video.

 

[innonimatu]

Gorby was unlucky. Just as he was about to try to stabalize and restructure with a new Union treaty the coup occured and he lost power. Can't guarantee his plans would have worked but with better luck and less ploting amoung his associates they might have.

No, he had lost control over the situation for months by then. His lack of luck was of his own making.

I'm Polish, and lived under Russian domination in communist Poland for a while before we escaped, so I was like.. F YEAH

I was young when the wall came down and the S.U. fell apart, but I was old enough to understand the basics. As such, I celebrated, as my country was free once again, for the first time in 50 years.

So, if communism had not been imposed by the USSR but developed into the government system of Poland in some other way (just assume it, it doesn't matter how), what opinion do you think most poles would have of the government by the 1980s?

 

[frekk]

I've watched the first video in the series. I've yet to see any contention that it was any better during the Soviet era, but I'll finish the videos before I respond.

I haven't watched the video, but I can't see how quality of life can be any better when life expectancy itself has plummeted. Male life expectancy in Russia now stands at less than 62 years! By comparison it stood at around 68 as far back as the 1950s.

Dictatorial state capitalism was quite bad for Russia, particularly during Stalin's era, but Latin American-style fascist corporatism isn't much of an improvement, if any.

Though I'm sure you don't agree, insofar that you'll defend the Soviet Union under the Stalinist era, you seem to value economic equality much higher than human rights.

Human rights? Putin and Medvedev?

 

[bombshoo]

Russia is almost as much a police state as it was back in the Soviet days only now the police work for private companies and mafia bosses. I highly recommend the book Casino Moscow to anyone that wants to know how Russian capitalism works.

 

[Traitorfish]

Russia is almost as much a police state as it was back in the Soviet days only now the police work for private companies and mafia bosses. I highly recommend the book Casino Moscow to anyone that wants to know how Russian "capitalism" works.

Why do you put "capitalism" in inverted commas? It is, by the proper definition, capitalism; it represents a society in which the means of production are held privately, specifically by a minority capitalist class. No-one ever said that capitalism had to be free market liberal democracy, after all.

 

[bombshoo]

Why do you put "capitalism" in inverted commas? It is, by the proper definition, capitalism; it represents a society in which the means of production are held privately, specifically by a minority capitalist class. No-one ever said that capitalism had to be free market liberal democracy, after all.

I suppose your right. I was mostly just trying to imply there was severe problems with it.

 

[Lord Baal]

I suppose your right. I was mostly just trying to imply there was severe problems with it.

If you're going to do that, you might as well put capitalism in inverted commas every time you write it.

 

[bombshoo]

If you're going to do that, you might as well put capitalism in inverted commas every time you write it.

You know when someone admits they were wrong it is generally considered polite to lay off.

 

[Lord Baal]

You know when someone admits they were wrong it is generally considered polite to lay off.

I'm mocking capitalism, not you.

Besides, I like to kick them while they're down.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Why do you put "capitalism" in inverted commas? It is, by the proper definition, capitalism; it represents a society in which the means of production are held privately, specifically by a minority capitalist class. No-one ever said that capitalism had to be free market liberal democracy, after all.

Yes, but Putin and Medvedev have shown little respect for property rights either.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, but Putin and Medvedev have shown little respect for property rights either.

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the means of production in Russia are privately-held, unless you count the Russian government as a private asset management firm. Actually, that probably isn't altogether inaccurate...

 

[Lord Baal]

It's also a bit of a stretch to say that the means of production in Russia are privately-held, unless you count the Russian government as a private asset management firm. Actually, that probably isn't altogether inaccurate...

They should change their name to The Russian Corporation. Float it on the stock market, then the Russian people might actually have a say in how their country is run.