Goz-12 - 5CC - Large map - Space Race

I understand what you're saying but I'd rather lose than abuse ROPs to win but that's just me. It was a comment made to the SGOTM team I was on that we didn't abuse ROPs but that's how I cut my teeth in this game. Since it's a team game I will go with whatever we decide together.

On infrastructure destruction two flaks underneath cities and SoD's tend to limit damage from bombers but we should limit our activities with the Germans from here. I sense they'll pound out as much of their UU as they can, though.
 
Took a look at the save. Some pre-flight actions I will take:
* There are a few unimproved tiles in city limits - I will send some of our slave workers to make improvements.
* Pillage free zone to reduce travel there - leaving narrow network of lines to pass.
* May connect another iron for good measure.
* Likely moves:
Russia will give 23 gold and 4 gpt for peace. Did we even shoot at them this time?
Aztecs will give peace costing us 60 gold
Hittites will make peace but have no gold or gpt to offer
Going to build some flaks and infantry besides bombers

Not likely move:
Iro will give 2600 for peace. I like the 36000 they are holding better

What do you think?
Byz will give 22 gpt, democracy and 40 gold for atomic theory
Should we build airports to get vet bombers?
When should I attempt the next spy plant in Iroquois - turn 3?
The leader should be held in reserve for a tank army or can he rush Apollo or a ship part?
 
What do you think?

Should we build airports to get vet bombers?
When should I attempt the next spy plant in Iroquois - turn 3?
The leader should be held in reserve for a tank army or can he rush Apollo or a ship part?

I didn't build airports myself because I felt that it was more important to have an immediate deterrent to German Panzers, since I had traded them so close. I'm not sure though whether being vets helps much; bombers rarely win against jet fighters as vets or otherewise, and status has no bearing against A/A, does it?

I last attempted to plant a spy on Iroquois on turn 10 of my set, so I'd say turn 5 is the next opportunity. The others are all ready to be tried when you choose.

SS Parts are city builds so I think they could be rushed. But we can't build one yet, and we won't get another MGL while we hold the this one, so maybe a tank Army might be the best use.
 
Can I say this is turning into my favorite game all time? :dance: I digress...

I would not build airports. My experience with bombers is the same as Bucephalus. Vet or reg are basically the same. Building airfields near battlezones is a whole different story though.

On Russia...are they at war with the Iroquois?
If not, would it make sense to sign them up for a MA and ROP vs. the Iroquois in lieu of a peace payments? They are weaker than the Iroquois and it could mean the Iroquois use their fast units towards Russia, open up more space (if they take cities = more cash for us) or raze them, more possibilites for critical resources plus it opens another front.

I would settle with the Aztecs so they can't buy anyone in. Peace with them may improve spy odds.

On space parts I don't recall being able to rush parts. I don't think it's possible.
 
Can I say this is turning into my favorite game all time? :dance: I digress...
Coming from a civ veteran like you, that is saying something! This has been a great game for sure, I can see why gozpel was interested in the 5CC deity challenge.

I know you can rush ship parts with a leader. I did it. Check out post 12 of this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87507. I just don't know if it was an MGL or an SGL. Based on the context of the game I would say it was an MGL but I really don't recall. If you meant cash rush, then I agree - ship parts can't be cash rushed. There is one whopper ship part that I would like to have a leader for. It may be too early to [edit] save a leader for that.

If it becomes an issue maybe I can track down the saves.

The reason I brought up airports is flak. Veteran bombers fare better against flak than regulars. It is probably not enough of a factor for this game, but I have seen veteran bombers make it through flak on the redline when regulars would not survive.

Do you really think it is a good idea to sign an MA against Iroquois? I am figuring war weariness is going to kick in any time now. I would hate to be tied down worrying about a military alliance with some meek AI like Russia. I'll see how bad the Iro cav situation is.
 
Do you really think it is a good idea to sign an MA against Iroquois? I am figuring war weariness is going to kick in any time now. I would hate to be tied down worrying about a military alliance with some meek AI like Russia. I'll see how bad the Iro cav situation is.

I agree not signing MA against Iroquois; to be honest, we don't need it so long as they don't have rubber for tanks. They seem to have used their excess offensive units long ago - the most Cav I saw in one turn was a stack of four. Babylon moves before Iroquois and there is a steady stream of Babylonian Cav that enters Iroquois territory, never to return; I suspect they become the priority targets.
 
I did mean cash rush. Good points on the Russians. ROP? That might be helpful if we can produce two fronts to attack from assuming we have enough units.
 
I found some time to play last night. Made it to the middle of turn 3.
Iroquois have TOW infantry, and our cavs are not cutting it against redline TOWs in big cities.
On the IBT after turn 2 the Aztecs and Iro made peace.
Aztecs now have motorized transp which we need to defeat these TOWs. On turn 3 I attempted to plant a spy with the Aztecs and they DOW us.

Took one size 1 Iro city netting 1400+ gold.

But the peace treaty enabled the Iro to come against us and I am a little concerned about the arty stack, plus we need tanks. Iro are now willing to give about 3200 gold for peace. So I strike a peace deal with the Iroquois, signing MA with them vs. Aztecs, collecting MT and like 2500 gold, paying 300 gpt. Of course I plan to get out of those payments on a spy plant (if it fails) or tech steal very soon.

We are caught up in tech atm. I am thinking I should gift the meek scientific civs up to modern times and try to get some of their free techs. Maybe a couple turn palace prebuild before I pull the trigger so we can get a jump start on the UN?

I could also sell MT to Germans [edit] collecting 1400 gold and a lux. Seems like they will have it in a couple turns anyway so why not?

Can't play tonight, not sure about tomorrow yet.
 
:hmm: I would use your best judgment here Zerksees. If we need to pull back troops to consolidate then that's what I'd do. Gifting to the other civs would make sense and see if we can trade them around. I don't think I'd trade a lux to the Germans and wouldn't trade MT until the other scientifics are in the MAs. Once we've traded around some MA techs then you can sell it to Germany and have greater bargaining power with them.

Also I'll be gone Tuesday through Thursday next week.
 
I should clarify - the Germans would be giving us a lux. It seems we need another lux or two to support this popluation once the war happiness wears off and for sure when war weariness kicks in.

Once I gift MT it to the meek, the Germans will pay less and would inevitably buy it from another AI anyway. I'll figure something out by next session.
 
This might be a good time to slingshot with our scientific trait.
Have you ever read this piece by DaveMcW?
DaveMcW said:
Scientific Double Slingshot (Civ3, C3C)

Does it annoy you when a scientific AI gets the same free tech as your scientific civ? Never let it happen again!

To pull this off you need a lot of gold in the bank, or optional techs from the previous age to barter with. Finish researching the last tech of the previous age, and a popup will appear congratulating you on entering the new era. Click "What's the big picture" and you will zoom to your research screen - without your free tech!

Hit F4 to tab to the foreign minister and buy the free techs from all your scientific rivals. You may need to gift them into the new age. Pay gold, gpt, anything to get those techs. Hit F1 adjust your gpt income. You will get it all back soon.

Now exit out of the foreign minister and continue your turn. When the build phase finishes check your research screen - you have a different free tech that none of the AIs have. If you got all the first-level techs already, it will be a second-level tech like Theology, Industrialization, or Space Flight! Sell it to your scientific rivals to get your money back.
 
lurker's comment: I cant believe this game is still going! :eek:

Great job so far to all! There's just one thing missing, could you post screenies more often? :)
 
Summary:

Gained 5 techs: mot transp, amphibious war, rocketry, computers, fission. We are caught up in tech
We have 27000+ gold – more than anyone else
Finally had success planting a spy
We have a tank army and 7 more tanks, 17 mech inf and some mobile SAMs
Almost all tiles in our territory railed
UN due in 4 turns
We have two sources of uranium but no aluminum
Lots of free zone tiles pillaged

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/goz12_1500AD.SAV

Detailed writeup to come as time permits.

Mr. Pentium – you really should get yourself another CD. You’ll get your money’s worth.

Mr. ansar – sorry no pics this time. You just got some last time.

BTW I could not pull the trick mentioned above to get techs since I had already entered the next age by the time it was posted.
 
Pre-flight:

Plan to
- pillage a bunch of the free zone to cut down travel and keep cities from taking away our dyes.
- finish improving all our tiles with rails. This will help us save units if we get into a war with Germany
- Avoid a dogpile
- Plant some spies and steal techs
- we could use more units – not sure how to do that quickly

-Celts will not talk
-Russia will give 4gpt and 23 gold for peace – we take it.
-Hittites have nothing to give except peace so we take it.
-Aztecs will give peace for 60 gold, but we wait since there we have MA against them for a little longer
-Byzantines give democracy, 22 gpt, 40 gold for atomic theory
-We have 27 cavs, 15 inf, 28 arty, 8 bombers, 4 guerilla, 3 flak and the army.
-Put all our sleeping workers to work except four – which join into Pyong and Bouncing Bucket. Gold is up some to +468 per turn
-Change two builds to infantry and one to cavalry
-Put bombers and cavs to work pillaging stuff – particularly outside the German border and near our dyes.
-Starting to move on Grand River with our arty stack defended by infantry. Cavs will catch up

IBT
Argh, Seoul riots. MM all the cities - must have lost war happiness or a lux somewhere
Pyong: inf -> inf
Rojo: Wall St -> cav
Nampo: bomber -> inf

Turn 1: 1455 AD
We are still stuck at 3 gold for 1 gpt on trades. I guess there is no recovering from that after all.
Iroquois have TOW infantry
Lost a cav to TOW inf on a hill near dyes
Army is healing, 38 units are moving toward Grand River, offense is 6 cavs and army can reach next turn
Celts still won’t talk
More pillaging. Maybe need an airfield near the Iro border?

IBT
Choose not to renew MA with Germany vs Aztecs
Flak shoots down Iro bomber [1-1]
Seoul: cav -> cav; Rojo: cav -> cav; BB: cav -> inf

Turn 2: 1460 AD
SOD in range of Grand River. Launch all 28 artillery. Yellow infantry on top of stack. Army goes down to 2 hit points but takes it. Took 3 cavs to take out a redline TOW inf [2-4]. I don’t even bother continuing since there are more units in there than I can take with remaining cavs. Sending reinforcements
Give Aztecs 5 gpt for peace

IBT
Aztecs and Iroquois make peace. This is bad as free Iro units start attacking our Grand River attack force. Best I can recall, we lost a cav and an inf, costing a couple TOW inf, though some of our other units took damage and army is at 1 HP (it retreated) [4-6]
Seoul riots again – MM cities again
Pyong: cav -> cav; Nampo: inf -> inf

Turn 3: 1465 AD
Aztecs have motorized transportation. I want it. Try spy plant and it fails – he DOW on us.
22% of citizens are saying give peace a chance. Increase lux to 10% and MM
Try again on Grand River (size 18?). This time I launch artillery, then lose 8 cavs trying to get rid of redline TOW inf – may have succeeded once [5-13]

A freebie city named Oswego shows up on Iro border. There is just one infantry in there which is killed and we get 1442 gold. Used a few free arty pieces to redline then attack with remaining cavs

OK now I am concerned about the arty stack, and I do not want to see any Aztec units. So I sic the Iroquois on them. In the peace deal, I pay 300 gpt for motorized transportation and 2400 gold. The ratio of gold to gpt is about 85% as best I can tell, way better than the 15% we can get outside of peace negotiations. So our arty is safe and Iro have something to do with their free units. Its all good :crazyeye:

Missed the age change opportunity, as the next thing I remember was seeing rocketry as our free tech. Iroquois also have rocketry.

Change city builds to tanks

I can sell mot transp to Germany, but after some discussion and thinking, this seems like a bad idea.

Decide to gift the meek into the next age, as I smell a tech trading opportunity. :mischief: Can you imagine gifting a deity level AI forward in tech? :eek:
Sell refining and steel to Russia for 22 gold, free artistry and fascism
Sell the corporation to Byz collecting 24 gold, 3 gpt, WM
Sell combustion to Babylon, collect 33 gold, ivory, WM

Splurge – spend 83 gold on embassy in Constantinople. Byz have horses and coal in the box, and are building guerillas

Change to palace pre-build in Rojo (for UN), due in 2
Gift the rest of the required techs to Russia, Byz and Babs except mot transp. Will give them mot transp next turn to give our pre-build more time to build

IBT:
Babs and Byz make peace – there are some world powers at work!
Iro kick us out and we go
BB: inf -> tank

Turn 4: 1470 AD
Germans finish mot transp (or steal it from us?) and get computers as their free tech. We can’t trade for it.
Assume this is turn 1 of the German golden age
Celts still won’t talk
Hey – notice our score is up to 1165 – ahead of France! Maybe we will catch England
At 100% science space flight to take 32 turns. I leave science at 0%.
MM Rojo to finish palace in 2 – going to hold 1 more turn on gifting the meek scientific forward
And the free zone pillaging continues, along with internal railroading
 
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