Ok, good to know I may take longer then to complete. Will finish by Thurs for sure.
GR17 - AWE vs 30 civs
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
I was thinking about the next game - probably not that much longer until we finish. There was one variant I wanted to try for GR2, but the civ was ill-suited for it.
Genocide AW
Our goal is complete destruction of all citizens that are not our own this means:
1) We go for conquest win only.
2) Foreign workers must be killed (disbanded).
3) Any city that isn't completely made up of our own citizens must be razed. If not sure then capture and immediate abandonment is allowed.
4) Declare war immediately (no trade)
5) We can't go to the diplo screen to see info about the other civs - techs, city counts, etc.
6) Spying implies sending a citizen into the other empire - this is beneath us so no spying.
7) We can know some general facts of other civs - so the screen that tells us we are nth in pop, land, etc is allowed. Also the score/culture/power/victory screen is allowed.
8) For artillery capture, it is assumed we are manning their engines so we can keep those.
Note that 3 means if a city of ours is captured long enough to grow we will probably have to destroy it since it would have a foreigner.
Obviously this variant is more difficult than normal AW. Last game had 60% ocean and there was too much empty land. I was thinking continents with 70% water. The first game we played at 70% of this didn't hit max cities at AI city density. Only when we got large with a higher city density was the max reached.
Are ppl interested in trying this? We could also play more standard AW with 70% water (continents) or even pangea if ppl don't like this.
Genocide AW
Our goal is complete destruction of all citizens that are not our own this means:
1) We go for conquest win only.
2) Foreign workers must be killed (disbanded).
3) Any city that isn't completely made up of our own citizens must be razed. If not sure then capture and immediate abandonment is allowed.
4) Declare war immediately (no trade)
5) We can't go to the diplo screen to see info about the other civs - techs, city counts, etc.
6) Spying implies sending a citizen into the other empire - this is beneath us so no spying.
7) We can know some general facts of other civs - so the screen that tells us we are nth in pop, land, etc is allowed. Also the score/culture/power/victory screen is allowed.
8) For artillery capture, it is assumed we are manning their engines so we can keep those.
Note that 3 means if a city of ours is captured long enough to grow we will probably have to destroy it since it would have a foreigner.
Obviously this variant is more difficult than normal AW. Last game had 60% ocean and there was too much empty land. I was thinking continents with 70% water. The first game we played at 70% of this didn't hit max cities at AI city density. Only when we got large with a higher city density was the max reached.
Are ppl interested in trying this? We could also play more standard AW with 70% water (continents) or even pangea if ppl don't like this.
F8 and F11 allowed then?
If you go with the 250 and more water, do you expect the city limit will not be reach as all the land will be filled before 512?
I would suggest you at least allow combat replacement of captured towns. Even then having settlers to do it will be a problem at times.
If you go with the 250 and more water, do you expect the city limit will not be reach as all the land will be filled before 512?
I would suggest you at least allow combat replacement of captured towns. Even then having settlers to do it will be a problem at times.
ThERat
Deity
what do you mean with that comment? I guess we can settle as we please, just no foreign citizens. By the way, I am not too sure what happens after a city capture, the enemy might have some citizens there already...
otherwise the idea sounds good and tough, which difficulty were you thinking of? I think monarch would be a challenge already
I mean that #3 I would say we should be able to slip a settler in and then abandon it.
ThERat
Deity
well, I am not Greebley, but that sounds right to me
Northern Pike
Deity
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- Jul 29, 2003
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That sounds like a good challenge.
Will we allow ourselves to hold the Great Library's city for one interturn if we have to capture it, or would that compromise the concept too much?
Will we allow ourselves to hold the Great Library's city for one interturn if we have to capture it, or would that compromise the concept too much?
Mumpulus
King
I would be interested in joining that game, if you'll have me.
What map size would this be? I have recently played regular Huge Pangaea maps on emperor, and found that you can get a lot more contacts sooner than on the ultra huge maps you've been playing in recent GRxx games. For extra excitement.
I tried to do those without GLib like I used to do on Standard Pangaea AWE, but I think that isn't doable. If we were to do this on Monarch as Rat suggests, then maybe we could add a "No GLib" rule, which fits into the variant, because we wouldn't want those inferior foreigners teaching us anything, now would we? On Monarch, that should be possible, certainly on continents or a smaller pangaea. I think we need a scientific civ if we're going that way. In any case, I'd stick to the rules put forward so far, and not keep a captured GLib city even if just for one turn.
Another issue with this variant is that we'll need a lot of workers. During my current set in Mump3, I find we are desperately short of workers. I'm afraid to dedicate one of our stronger cities to workers, but that is really what I'd like to do. At one point Alesia was put on infra, and then it's wasteful to go back to workers/settlers. In this new game, you should make sure to have a worker factory and keep it running the entire game. Not too many infra builds in that town, so you don't feel compelled to take it off workers just to make the infra pay off.
Because of the need for lots of native workers, I think the economy will need to be better than average. Combined with no possibility of capturing, secondary expansion will be slower IMO.
What map size would this be? I have recently played regular Huge Pangaea maps on emperor, and found that you can get a lot more contacts sooner than on the ultra huge maps you've been playing in recent GRxx games. For extra excitement.
I tried to do those without GLib like I used to do on Standard Pangaea AWE, but I think that isn't doable. If we were to do this on Monarch as Rat suggests, then maybe we could add a "No GLib" rule, which fits into the variant, because we wouldn't want those inferior foreigners teaching us anything, now would we? On Monarch, that should be possible, certainly on continents or a smaller pangaea. I think we need a scientific civ if we're going that way. In any case, I'd stick to the rules put forward so far, and not keep a captured GLib city even if just for one turn.
Another issue with this variant is that we'll need a lot of workers. During my current set in Mump3, I find we are desperately short of workers. I'm afraid to dedicate one of our stronger cities to workers, but that is really what I'd like to do. At one point Alesia was put on infra, and then it's wasteful to go back to workers/settlers. In this new game, you should make sure to have a worker factory and keep it running the entire game. Not too many infra builds in that town, so you don't feel compelled to take it off workers just to make the infra pay off.
Because of the need for lots of native workers, I think the economy will need to be better than average. Combined with no possibility of capturing, secondary expansion will be slower IMO.
If we play monarch (which I think a good idea) then I would like to be more strict. We have to raze every town that the AI created. The only case we could capture is to recover one of our own cities - if there is a foreigner then we must abandon.
For empire, I think the more relaxed "we can keep a city for up to 1 turn" would be better (allowing GLib Capture).
For empire, I think the more relaxed "we can keep a city for up to 1 turn" would be better (allowing GLib Capture).
I think we can have one more player.
I would play with the 250x250 map with 70% water (continents) and 30 enemies. My belief is that all land would be filled without hitting 512 cities. Later in the game though, the limit could very well be reached.
80% water would never hit the limit, but be a bit crowded.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
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I certainly want to play in the next one, but I'll be unavailable due to travel for about a month (basically mid-July to mid-August), so an extra player might be a good idea.
Monarch we should be able to build the GLIB on our own, AWE it is iffy. On the raze thing, would that preclude capture, sell off things and abandon on the same turn?
ThERat
Deity
I'd say capture to sell stuff should be forbidden, we are genocidal, no profit from those guys...temporarily keep the city to access the next faster is ok, if we abandon on the same turn. but no selling of stuff.
It is fine by me, but I do not see the logic, since genocide occurs either way. I merely wanted to know the rules.
If you sell and abandon then you have to keep the stinky foreigners around while you load the library and market buildings onto wagons to sell. Our men have very sensitive noses you know.
The real reason though is that Monarch tends to be easy. I feel we should play with the harsher rule because of this. Its like 5CC - either you play strict (never more than 5 cities) or relaxed (no more than 5 cities at turns end). This is similar - you play strict (Our empire never has foreigners in it) vs relaxed (Our empire doesn't have foreigners at the turns end).
So - Next game is:
We are playing Monarch.
We are playing by the strict rule. All cities must be razed - the only exception being capturing back our own city after a short period of time (city hasn't grown).
----------
Later we may play a relaxed empire game if this game is fun and we want more challenge.
The real reason though is that Monarch tends to be easy. I feel we should play with the harsher rule because of this. Its like 5CC - either you play strict (never more than 5 cities) or relaxed (no more than 5 cities at turns end). This is similar - you play strict (Our empire never has foreigners in it) vs relaxed (Our empire doesn't have foreigners at the turns end).
So - Next game is:
We are playing Monarch.
We are playing by the strict rule. All cities must be razed - the only exception being capturing back our own city after a short period of time (city hasn't grown).
----------
Later we may play a relaxed empire game if this game is fun and we want more challenge.
Preturn:
Military: We have Armies sitting on the coast including a 7 hp Tank Army near battleships. That doesn't seem safe to me. I cover with a Cav army. Keeping armies off the coast can save needing healing.
Ran across the city Balkh that has Artillery without defenders and boats seem near. The Artillery will draw boat fire that will damage the city because of no defender. I am going to find 2 Infantry - this should protect the city from damage.
Builds:
Copan is unique in our empire and we have it starving while Kaminalwhat? has the squares? We should be growing the town that can build Armies big and building Armies Kaminalwhat? which shrank my last turn to give Copan room to grow is back to size 12. I adjust it to over 80 shieilds (add 2 workers) which is its max size - BUT it can build a cathedral and have 1 more MP, which will allow it to grow to size 20 and over 100 shields. If we had done this 20 turns ago we would have had 5 more armies now.
I draft 3 TOW to build the Cathedral in 1 turn. I also set towns to workers needed to grow Copan to size 20. I think I will build a few extra - not sure we have enough near captiol to handle max pollution in one turn (I like enough to clear 2 mountains as a minimum).
MM for scientists - science to zero.
IBT: Tank army gets hit by bombers and is almost certainly going to die - Oh actually it is 2 tank armies. Both are killed. Going to need to build more anti-air and need to protect injured units ( I could have added a cav unit to the stack but didn't know the danger. Landing near Babylon.
1870 AD: Attack Knossus. 13 HP tank army loses vs a 3 hp Infantry!
Attack Athens - kill some TOE.
Attack Seoul - it has Smiths so I ended up Capturing Smith's raises our GPT by 343!
Sell all the buildings so whoever gets it back won't get as much.
IBT: Yay, Hittites capture Smiths. It will likely starve. I may pillage
Get Ecology start on Synth Fibers (5 turns).
Another landing near babylon. Lose Destroyer and Sub. Lose a single worker to a Barbarian.
1872 AD: Attack Athens - Investigate city to see if I have enough Cavalry to take it - Answer is yes if I use it all. I do so and Raze the City. This destroys JSB and Leo's.
Leo would have been nice, but we can't keep the city yet and I would rather it was not in enemy hands.
Get another Army via Leader Greece has a lot of Infantry and better. Bomb and kill these.
IBT: I was going to Abandon Ergil which I accidentally captured but somehow forgot to. Portugal grabbed it. Not all bad as that helps me attack the next city if I capture back.
1874 AD: Capture and Abandon Ergil. Attack Next Persian town but still some Infantry in it. Many armies healing. Sending over more armies as well.
IBT: Impressive numbers of units coming at our cities. Many different civs now.
1876 AD: Lose another nearly healthy Tank Army vs a TOW. Those are tough in metropolises (though we still have to get pretty unlucky to lose 14 hp before the enemy loses 4).
Raze Badapi (Zulu) We have 3 armies there now attacking Pikes.
Raze Greek town which I hit the raze button before checking the name.
1878 AD: Raze Artimesirium, Delphi?, Pergamon, Ephesus(Greek), Troy, and finally Marathon. Greece has 2 cities left - one is accessable, the other is pretty far to the south. Build Strategic cities to capture this much which I destroy at the end of the turn.
Mpondo Razed (Zulu).
IBT: Another Dropoff. Whoops - must have destroyed a town and then forgotten to build anew as the Koreans plant one next too our army.
1880 AD: Kill final Greek City in the North. They now have a single city. 2 Armies this turn.
Start trying out a row of cities to the south to block that front. The idea is to head north while holding the line to the south
IBT: We finally meet the Celts and declare war on them. Thes send some troops at us - mostly MDI and such.
Some units now come after our new towns.
1882 AD: Defend our original city by cutting roads so I don't need the Infantry Armies in the town. Get another Army.
Kill all but 1 Celt Longbow next to our towns.
IBT: For a change of pace some enemy units land near Moscow
1884 AD: We have 6 Modern Armor Armies now - 2 Armies were not filled at the start of my turn, one was built and 3 were from leaders this turn.
IBT: Build another Army.
1886 AD: Capture and abandon Sidon and Hamadan (Persian). Raze Kaesong
Get 3 Leaders = Armies from Modern Armor attacks. With 1 shipped over we will probably run out of Modern Armor filling Armies.
IBT: Looks like we lost an Army in Zulu lands. It was fairly healthy 2 turns ago but enough Zulu attacked it.
1888 AD: Raze Ulsan, but lose a Cav Army taking it. China lands near I am a lumberjack on home island.
2 more leaders. Definitely don't have enough Modern Armor for all the Armies.
Notes:
Accidentally forgot to cover workers. We will lose them IBT. Note that it matters now we have so many.
Still dealing with initial rush and most attacks were killing the enemy. Also didn't finish the wall to the south - I didn't want too many cities to defend.
NP, I suspect you will be able to start making real progress against the enemy. We have been killing large number of the AI each turn. There are a goodly number of settlers because I know you use strategic cities to reach the AI.
The Save
Military: We have Armies sitting on the coast including a 7 hp Tank Army near battleships. That doesn't seem safe to me. I cover with a Cav army. Keeping armies off the coast can save needing healing.
Ran across the city Balkh that has Artillery without defenders and boats seem near. The Artillery will draw boat fire that will damage the city because of no defender. I am going to find 2 Infantry - this should protect the city from damage.
Builds:
Copan is unique in our empire and we have it starving while Kaminalwhat? has the squares? We should be growing the town that can build Armies big and building Armies Kaminalwhat? which shrank my last turn to give Copan room to grow is back to size 12. I adjust it to over 80 shieilds (add 2 workers) which is its max size - BUT it can build a cathedral and have 1 more MP, which will allow it to grow to size 20 and over 100 shields. If we had done this 20 turns ago we would have had 5 more armies now.
I draft 3 TOW to build the Cathedral in 1 turn. I also set towns to workers needed to grow Copan to size 20. I think I will build a few extra - not sure we have enough near captiol to handle max pollution in one turn (I like enough to clear 2 mountains as a minimum).
MM for scientists - science to zero.
IBT: Tank army gets hit by bombers and is almost certainly going to die - Oh actually it is 2 tank armies. Both are killed. Going to need to build more anti-air and need to protect injured units ( I could have added a cav unit to the stack but didn't know the danger. Landing near Babylon.
1870 AD: Attack Knossus. 13 HP tank army loses vs a 3 hp Infantry!
Attack Athens - kill some TOE.
Attack Seoul - it has Smiths so I ended up Capturing Smith's raises our GPT by 343!
Sell all the buildings so whoever gets it back won't get as much.
IBT: Yay, Hittites capture Smiths. It will likely starve. I may pillage
Get Ecology start on Synth Fibers (5 turns).Another landing near babylon. Lose Destroyer and Sub. Lose a single worker to a Barbarian.
1872 AD: Attack Athens - Investigate city to see if I have enough Cavalry to take it - Answer is yes if I use it all. I do so and Raze the City. This destroys JSB and Leo's.
Leo would have been nice, but we can't keep the city yet and I would rather it was not in enemy hands.
Get another Army via Leader Greece has a lot of Infantry and better. Bomb and kill these.
IBT: I was going to Abandon Ergil which I accidentally captured but somehow forgot to. Portugal grabbed it. Not all bad as that helps me attack the next city if I capture back.
1874 AD: Capture and Abandon Ergil. Attack Next Persian town but still some Infantry in it. Many armies healing. Sending over more armies as well.
IBT: Impressive numbers of units coming at our cities. Many different civs now.
1876 AD: Lose another nearly healthy Tank Army vs a TOW. Those are tough in metropolises (though we still have to get pretty unlucky to lose 14 hp before the enemy loses 4).
Raze Badapi (Zulu) We have 3 armies there now attacking Pikes.
Raze Greek town which I hit the raze button before checking the name.
1878 AD: Raze Artimesirium, Delphi?, Pergamon, Ephesus(Greek), Troy, and finally Marathon. Greece has 2 cities left - one is accessable, the other is pretty far to the south. Build Strategic cities to capture this much which I destroy at the end of the turn.
Mpondo Razed (Zulu).
IBT: Another Dropoff. Whoops - must have destroyed a town and then forgotten to build anew as the Koreans plant one next too our army.
1880 AD: Kill final Greek City in the North. They now have a single city. 2 Armies this turn.
Start trying out a row of cities to the south to block that front. The idea is to head north while holding the line to the south
IBT: We finally meet the Celts and declare war on them. Thes send some troops at us - mostly MDI and such.
Some units now come after our new towns.
1882 AD: Defend our original city by cutting roads so I don't need the Infantry Armies in the town. Get another Army.
Kill all but 1 Celt Longbow next to our towns.
IBT: For a change of pace some enemy units land near Moscow
1884 AD: We have 6 Modern Armor Armies now - 2 Armies were not filled at the start of my turn, one was built and 3 were from leaders this turn.
IBT: Build another Army.
1886 AD: Capture and abandon Sidon and Hamadan (Persian). Raze Kaesong
Get 3 Leaders = Armies from Modern Armor attacks. With 1 shipped over we will probably run out of Modern Armor filling Armies.
IBT: Looks like we lost an Army in Zulu lands. It was fairly healthy 2 turns ago but enough Zulu attacked it.
1888 AD: Raze Ulsan, but lose a Cav Army taking it. China lands near I am a lumberjack on home island.
2 more leaders. Definitely don't have enough Modern Armor for all the Armies.
Notes:
Accidentally forgot to cover workers. We will lose them IBT. Note that it matters now we have so many.
Still dealing with initial rush and most attacks were killing the enemy. Also didn't finish the wall to the south - I didn't want too many cities to defend.
NP, I suspect you will be able to start making real progress against the enemy. We have been killing large number of the AI each turn. There are a goodly number of settlers because I know you use strategic cities to reach the AI.
The Save
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
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- 6,673
ThERat
Deity
the still still looks huge...the other continent has so many cities left...by the way what are we researching right now?
We could go for the internet for the nice research labs at home to be culture kings...
We could go for the internet for the nice research labs at home to be culture kings...
We are researching computers ( 2 turns)
I think we have 11 or 12 Modern Armor Armies now...
I think we have 11 or 12 Modern Armor Armies now...
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