GR23 - AWDG vs 30 Civs

[ThERat]

I would agree with you if we were on a Pangaea, but we have to invade the other big continent and we might well face bombers there.

Also, Hoover will give us a huge benefit in such huge games.

 

[Greebley]

Have a looked at save. Well, the game is "done", in the sense that it comes to "technical stage". Of course, if we want to have fun longer we can research to Modern adge... But in my experience RP+Mil._Trad. normally enough to kill them all. Also, with Mobilisation we can do it lot faster. Essential part of my "algorithm" is Arty+Cav+Worker+ Settlers interaction. We have lot of Catapults to upgrade.
To simplify it better to have Leonardo. It is in Peterburg, under Byzantya. Note, that Moscow and many native Russian Cities belongs to Vikings, so Leonardo is near Vikings-Byzantia border.
I recomend scout with Knights Armies North accross Viking's land to localise Peterburg and work out plan how to capture it.

It might be winnable with only cav, but getting units to the other continent is extremely tedious without flight. Additionally if the AI gets destroyers, then we need destroyers too or we won't be able to get across.

Hoover is a big bonus when you have as many factories as in these games tend to have.

The big advantage of tanks is the double attack makes units instantly Elite and greatly increases Army chances. Tanks are only speed 2 however, so Modern Armor is another great leap forward with Speed 4 armies.

Finally there is real risk of a United nations loss. If another civ builds it and if elections are held, then we will be one nation in the election and at war with everyone. That means everyone will vote against us and we lose the game. I think in a demigod game the AI could get the tech needed to build the UN before we could take them out with Cavalry. Remember that the other continent can be many turns by boat to cross. Nothing is more devastating than a UN loss in a game you would eventually be able to win by conquest.

Thus there are little jumps that really force us to keep going - we need to reach the modern era for the UN to be sure we are safe from the UN threat and Modern Armor is not that far after that.

If we win before we reach Modern Armor, then well and fine, but there is little reason to turn off research until then. The AI crumples to MA Armies. In past games it has seemed that we are making steady progress until we get modern armor and then BAM! the game ends in the next 0-20 turns.

Oh we also will want Espionage or Satellites if we want to win by conquest - exploring the whole sea for islands is very tedious - it is so huge. Given the amount of territory in these huge games and the 512 city limit, domination is usually harder than conquest - it requires both city planning and (I think) culture in most of the cities (if you try to fill up the land without culture, I believe you will come up short - I know for a fact you can't reach 100% but am not sure what % you would reach).

 

[Greebley]

As ThERat states pangea would be a different kettle of fish. One reason I like continents over pangea is that it adds more strategy and need for tech than "reach Cav and kill". Crossing and invading another continent is an interesting part of the game as you face massive number of units.

 

[vmxa]

We are going for conquest and it is far from done. We have a clock that can be quite a challenge to us. It looks like this will be two massive continents and if that is the case, once we get to the other one, we will have to deal with a lot of bad terrain.

I would expect a massive tundra stretch and one huge mountain chain. We see these in all these maps and we have not seen them on this land. Those things really slow you down. Cav armies will be pressed to deal with infantry and they are going to be in large numbers.

You are correct in the sense we cannot be beaten by domination, but we could run out of time.

Leo's is too late for us already. We are going to up grade now, so we can get Leo's in due time. We really do not have enough knight armies to scout, we want to start razing places.

We will be able to scout some after we get a few more armies, but a couple of legion armies could do some looking.

 

[I. Larkin]

Leo's is too late for us already. We are going to up grade now, so we can get Leo's in due time. We really do not have enough knight armies to scout, we want to start razing places.

Not quiet understand... Sure, we will upgrade Knights to Cav before we capture Leo.
But most expensive upgrade is Catapult to Arty and here Leo may help. It will be good if we capture it "just in time". With bunch of Arty (120-150) and some Cavs (30-40) we may capture 4-5 Cities per turn, so 400 AI's Cities will over in 80-100 turns.

I would agree with you if we were on a Pangaea, but we have to invade the other big continent and we might well face bombers there.
Also, Hoover will give us a huge benefit in such huge games.

Intercontinent transfer can be done with Ship Chain, Flight, of cource more
comfortable, but you can't transfer Arty with flight anyway.
With small Cities we have Factory+Hoover is not that effective, in my last SG we went this way but I did not find big benefit of it. Anyhow, if we get ToE before RP, I'd take it, not electronics. Problem with ToE that we can't postpone it in this game to Combassion+Flight pair, but use ToE for Tecnology like Corporation have no much sense..

 

[AndrewN]

Actually, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek when I said the game was won . Even to me it seems there is a lot still to do.

You are long passed the point where you could be overwhelmed by the AI and lose that way, but (as Greebley said) you could still lose by UN vote or time. I assume you are going to class a time victory as a loss.

I quite agree that Cavalry armies will not cut it. Even if they don't get attacked, trying to winkle out Infantry defended cities with Cavalry armies will probably be slow, even with Artillery support.

Actually, this could be interesting (or 'fun' if you prefer Greebley ). Will the AI attack Modern Army armies with bombers and then units?

I see no reason to stop researching before Satellites, in previous games it has been vital to find all those odd islands with cities on them.

Go get em guys

 

[ThERat]

short update into the 5th turn:

game is pretty slow, razing cities is a pain. we got MT and have still a monopoly on that. I started industrialization (13 turns) but we need some cash cow to milk else we will run out of cash for research soon.

As I got leader lucky, we have 4 cav armies (3 of them filled with only 3 cavs) and are starting to really dent the enemy. However, we are suffering of a shortage of replacement settlers anyone surprised

 

[vmxa]

I. Larkin
"Not quiet understand... Sure, we will upgrade Knights to Cav before we capture Leo.
But most expensive upgrade is Catapult to Arty and here Leo may help. It will be good if we capture it "just in time". With bunch of Arty (120-150) and some Cavs (30-40) we may capture 4-5 Cities per turn, so 400 AI's Cities will over in 80-100 turns."

We won't be upgrading cats to anything. We will upgrade some cannons and maybe a few trebs. We won't have that kind of money to spend, until we start razing cities on the other land. They have money, but that is a long ways off.

We will use most of the money to pay for research. You just cannot compare normal SG games to a game like this, it is not the level it is the size. Note that ships have increased movement in this game, it is needed to deal with the massive size.

I don't recall ever using chains in these games, but I am not sure if they are forbidden or not. Anyway you could have a lot of trouble holding a chain as we will see massive numbers of ships. I personally do not allow chains, but I use them in SG's that the team wants them.

Anyway without chains we will not be able to get 150 bombardment units over in any timely fashion. The armies will not be waiting for them when and if they do arrive. They will be use to defend towns on the new land for the most part.

We usually face bombers in Emperor level games like this and will surely see them in this one. That is could to cause a lot of grief and careful planning.

We are also not going to have the fast expansion as we hit the 512 so early. We will end up with huge amounts of open land to defend. We also will have to have some sort of eyes like parked units or towers to try to see the traffic and barbs. Nothing like having a cav swoop out and snatch a stack of workers.

"Intercontinent transfer can be done with Ship Chain, Flight, of cource more
comfortable, but you can't transfer Arty with flight anyway.
With small Cities we have Factory+Hoover is not that effective, in my last SG we went this way but I did not find big benefit of it. Anyhow, if we get ToE before RP, I'd take it, not electronics. Problem with ToE that we can't postpone it in this game to Combassion+Flight pair, but use ToE for Tecnology like Corporation have no much sense."

I am not in complete disagreement with you on the RP. I prefer to get to it ASAP. The arties and fast workers are so useful. The infantry allow us to free up some armies.

The factory business is tricky. We will only have cities, no metros and some places are not going to be ideal for shields. The problem is that tanks and arties and all that stuff requires a lot of shields.

We have to research AT and Elecs to get to the modern age and they are very expensive, so getting them free will speed up getting to the next age.

I am not so concerned about the UN as we should be them to it with no major effort. I would expect us to be first to the tech and if not will not be far away. We will have a pre for it, so all we have to sweat is them getting an MGL to rush it with. Not a real large worry.

 

[vmxa]

short update into the 5th turn:

game is pretty slow, razing cities is a pain. we got MT and have still a monopoly on that. I started industrialization (13 turns) but we need some cash cow to milk else we will run out of cash for research soon.

As I got leader lucky, we have 4 cav armies (3 of them filled with only 3 cavs) and are starting to really dent the enemy. However, we are suffering of a shortage of replacement settlers anyone surprised

If you want to suffer more, just cut lots of roads. That was a 2 or 3 minute wait for me. There are a lot settler builds, but they are slow, maybe we can rush a few with some of the old units.

At least now you can get them to the front quickly. I don't think anyone had a lot of cash on our land. May have to slow research a tad, unless we can get enough towns to ease the unit support cost.

 

[Northern Pike]

I don't recall ever using chains in these games, but I am not sure if they are forbidden or not.

We've never ship-chained in Greebley's games, and it's at least strongly discouraged. That's one reason why IL, assuming it to be all right, is thinking along different lines than the rest of us.

FWIW, I've never seen a problem with ship-chaining. It seems to me that chaining allows the player to correct one of the game's most absurd features--that land transport is easier and quicker than water transport, in defiance of historical experience.

 

[vmxa]

We use to allow in Demo game, but it was all humans. I think that is main reason you see players not allow it, the AI would be at a bigger disadvantage.

 

[I. Larkin]

Even without Ship chain Arty transfer to Iroquis land will be very beneficial.
We may build and send some frigates to find out where and how far another continent.
Still belive that we have to upgrade ALL catapult to Artilery. It is too strong to neglect.
To have this cash we may slow down research after get RP.
In worst case scenario we may want to go up to Flight, but I don't think we will need Atomic Theory/Electronics. Factories and Hoover are far to far expensive.

 

[vmxa]

True we don't need factories and I build only a few, even on a huge Sid map, but they won't slow us down and will help some.

We will send out a few frigates, but we don't have any yet and they are at risk as we cannot match the AI in ships.

The problem with arties is we cannot use them on offense in any significant way. The armies will be held down way to much. The game will become a speed rush, once we start to break out on their land.

We can use them on the initial landing and on shipping and on defense, but you do not need 150 for that. Remember will will have to get troops over and will not have an infinite number of ships to haul guns over a large distance.

 

[I. Larkin]

Will see. Anyway, just realise that to transfer our Armies we need Transports -> Combassion. Probably ugly shaped continents have narrow gap only somwhere.

Don't know how others play after RP, but I normally readline defenders in City with Arties, then Cavs take it without loses, workers build RR, wounded Cav return to barracks, Setler come behind the City towards to next, Captured City disbanded, new City founded, new bunch of Arties come to next tile, bombard, capture and so on until Arties over. It is wery offensive algorithm and works well untill Mech Inf. The more Arties you have the more you capture per turn.

 

[Greebley]

I don't feel size matters that much for factories. The game will last long enough to make them worthwhile. Even in semi-corrupt towns you can build factories faster than units using civil engineers. Because of this nearly every non-corrupt town will double its production. If the game was nearing the end, I might agree with you.

BTW, I also like to research RP before going for Hoover, if we can still nab ToE.

Without Leo, I would not upgrade cats. With Leo it may be worth it. I find disbanding Cats to hurry things seems a decent use for them. You can take a city and still build walls next turn.

I would consider starting to capture cities. Otherwise they start small and need Aquaducts. It sounds like we will start eliminating players in the not to distant future

 

[vmxa]

The reason the size of the map matters is you just do not need to make a lot of units in a std map, once you have gotten to the point Hoovers. You just need about 3 or 4 cities making units to fill armies and man a few towns.

Disbanding cats is very useful in these games as that is also a way to speed up settler builds, when you need more quick. We tend to have 10-20 towns making arties, so no big need to upgrade. We can some upgrade cannons.

True if you have Leo it is then an option, but not important enough to go out scouring for the location and trying to grab it.

I pretty much always argue for going for RP first, but I lose that argument, so I see no need to bring it up. Most of the games the ToE is not a critical item, but two free and expensive techs is important in this game.

It is quite likely we can get away with going for RP, but we do not have to make that call yet.

I am very dubious of the idea of using arties to redline units and then attacking with cavs. First it is very tedious, second you will lose a lot of cavs attacking even 1hp infantry with cavs. I have lost many in the open field like that, so inside a city is not going to be without losses.

I do not drag around massive stacks of bombardment units in all but rare conditions. It is annoying and too slow.

We won't be filling any of the new armies so they can be sent on galleons. Transports are a long ways off right now. It does not appear as if the AI iis going to give us any discounted techs or at least not many that we want. The research cost is painful on this map and they are now more or less stuck with the number of towns they have.

They are good at ripping through the AA and MA, but then it bogs down something fierce.

 

[ThERat]

Currently research is still very slow due to the low number of scientists. I was able to get them to 166 now and this will only go up as we grow.
Unit support is still a staggering 90gpt, but with faster expansion, this should improve as well.

Rushing settlers with units is not really feasible as units are used as MP's. Cahs rush will be needed. Byzantines have some cash now (4k) and I will try and leech some from them.

As for upgrading cats and trebs, I disagree. The post rail conquest phase is known for cav army attacks that can reach cities fast due to the 4 movement points. Conquest is very fast due to this and any artillery would only slow this down. I have hardly seen attacks on cities using artillery support at this stage. Artillery is needed for home defense and leader fishing.

 

[Greebley]

We rarely use Artillery in the end part of the game on cities. Once you get 60+ Armies, they are doing everything except getting for more leaders. Didn't we break 100 in at least one game?

They are useful for stopping boats, weakening enemy units so elite unit attacks take less damage, and rarely can help out on bombarding a town that has no border expansion (use a settler and it can be 2 away).

Eventually they are sitting around a lot.

Crosspost with ThERat - the way to get scientists up is to keep cities. I have raised science by 100 in a set of 10 turns doing that.

Edit: One other point: One excellent use of the Legion Armies can be to hang out next to the city to capture it back if it flips or is captured. No point in suppressing resistance and putting units at risk until the civ is gone and there is no risk. Capture the nicests cities and assign a Legion army to it. We can keep some cities that way at least (or we can keep them all and live with having to backtrack. Not sure if we are up to this point yet (are easily dealing with enemy units for an army to hang around). I would always keep the last fiew cities.

I am guessing we will be far enough along that I will be keeping all cities when my turn comes around again (enemy units are a lesser threat).

 

[ThERat]

I will start keeping cities, for exmaple on the current turn, I have taken an English city, that can be easily incorporated in to our city-net. I won't abandon them.
However, Japanese cities with huge culture and around 30+ other cities are currently not worth keeping.

Keeping cities that are not in reach of our land require armies and tie them up. It is always a balance.

And btw, we are still dealing with big stacks of enemies that approach + lots of annoying conquistadors.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, I didn't expect you would be keeping cities and I wouldn't either if I was playing. 10-20 turns from now things could be very different.

BTW, I have never proven it but it my belief that the current articles on flip chances are incomplete. I think that if your ratio is about a certain amount it is capped (my guess is 3x or 4x), there may be a maximum flip chance, and flips may be impossible in the very early game.

I once tried to figure this out but I started a scenario where I captured a size 1000 city with AI having 10,000 times my culture and the darn thing wouldn't flip. Either I was using the editor wrong or the final point above which makes testing harder.

In any case a large culture deficit has never slowed me from keeping cities when I am capable of handling the flip. I haven't noticed them flipping like crazy either.