Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva)

[SteveU]

Again.
Problem is you are mixing nation states (Lithuania) and multi-nation empires (GDL, indeed multi-TRIBES because there were no nations in time of GDL). Rome and Italy are not the same. Rome was made by Italic tribes, but Italians don't pretend to be the only ancestors of Roman Empire, as min half of Europe are ancestors. As I saw there is an Italy mod in addition to Rome. Why no GDL mod?

 

[Litvin]

Again.
Problem is you are mixing nation states (Lithuania) and multi-nation empires (GDL, indeed multi-TRIBES because there were no nations in time of GDL). Rome and Italy are not the same. Rome was made by Italic tribes, but Italians don't pretend to be the only ancestors of Roman Empire, as min half of Europe are ancestors. As I saw there is an Italy mod in addition to Rome. Why no GDL mod?

Finally! Fresh air! Thanx!

 

[LDeska]

About Vilnius as Lithuanian city - it is a Lithuanian city now and no one says it is not or it shouldn't be. Fortunatelly we are all in EU now and there is no more USSR soldiers in Poland or Lithuania. If we want to see that beatiful city we just have to take a plane or train and visit it - of course as a tourists.
I wanted to add that it really was a Polish city before war and I have something that will prove it: official data of Lithuanian Central Statistical Office (Statistikos Departamentas) I really doubt that this office is lying about that issue... (in fact I think that data are 'smoothed' in opposite direction). So, see that link:
http://www.std.lt/en/pages/view/?id=1732
and you will see that at the end of the table, next to 'Vilnius county' there are numbers of population by ethnicity - there are 466k of Lithuanians, 216k Poles, with other ethnicities it is 360k. So I was right that there is slightly more than 50% of Lithuanians in Vilnius now... 60 years ago the proportions were at least opposite.
Two more things: I was surprised that we in Poland like Lithuanians as our neighbours against which AFAIK we never had a war and, what is more important, we had a common state for so long time, but Poles are not so liked in Lithuania... Last thing - I really think that a mod for Commonwealth of Lithuania and Poland would be a great thing that might improve those relations

Leszek

 

[Litvin]

To ldeska

You talking about the Commonwealth as if the Byelarusians and the Ukrainians never existed

Don't you think it is just a part of the whole story?

To tell the truth our countries (Belarus, Lithuania, Poland and the Ukraine) had a common state for at least 300 years. So when you are talking abot the Commonwealth you shuold mention two more countries - Belarus and the Ukraine.

Dzen'kue!

 

[LDeska]

Litvin: it's because this thread is about GDL... and also I'm not very good at history of Belarus and Ukraine. Of course I know that in those times our Commonwealth had very diversified population: Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Jews, Belarussians, Russiand, Germans. AFAIK Belarus as an independent state was formed for the first time after WW1 and immediately run by USSR and became a soviet republic, which in fact it is till now... As I heard the support for Lukaszenko is still huge, around 50% of voters still support him, but is declining. I wish you will manage to get rid of that teletubbie Lukaszenko and this last dictatorship in Europe will transform into Republic! Maybe not on this Sunday, when you will have presidential vote, but in few years you will have your Orange Revolution ;-)
I'm afraid that we're too far from the original topic of this thread, so for me EOT, all the best for your mod, I will surely try it. I'm finishing right now my first game with Polish mod, as a Jan III Sobieski on standard map with Noble level. It's a little bit too easy - I have twice more points than the second on the list - Chinese.. next time I'll have to try on next level. One funny thing - Russians in that game are very peaceful to Poland quite strange maybe it's because I have 3-4 times bigger state? ]

Leszek

 

[Litvin]

To ldeska. It is great that you are aware of the current political situation in my country. And I feel really sorry that you know the history of GDL, grounding only on the data given by historians of modern Lithuania and former Soviet Union. As I mentioned before it is shame for my Land that current government of Belarus does nothing in order to restore historical truth. I do not have enough time to make such huge posts as our friends from Lietuva do, but I promise as soon as i get more free time I will translate some sources which are now available only in belarusian and russian languages or at least i can provide you with links which have data regarding GDL in English.

I understand that our current government does everything to keep this so-called "union" with Russia. That is why they will never officially claim facts like during war with tsar of Moskovia Ivan Grozny, population of Belarus lost every second, moreover in our eastern parts 8 out of 10 men were killed.

Not much data about true history of Belarus left but I am sure someday the government of Belarus will do what it must do.

PS I like novels written by Genrik Senkevich.

PS I like Polish mod and I do hope that the mod of GDL will not be worse.

 

[Litvin]

If anyone is interested in Belarus and Belarusian point of view on the History of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, please check this site:

http://www.belarusguide.com

Thnax in advance for the time you spend to get new info about Belarus

 

[LDeska]

To Litvin: I hope that more and more of Belarussians will be also interested in history of your country - it will help to make your state get rid of Lukaszenko... we are interested in this because he is fighting the Polish minority in Belarus - lately he even announced that the management of ZPB (Związek Polaków na Białorusi - Union of Poles in Belarus) is not legal and chose his own management of ZPB! He did it because it was the last officially recognized social organization in Belarus, which was independent from Lukaszenko.
The issue of Belarus is well known in Poland and people care about it - ex. last sunday in the Castle Square in my city - Warsaw there was a concert of Belarussians musicians, which are banned in Belarus - to support opposition ahead of Sunday presidential elections.
About sources - I speak russian (I was learning it in schools for 12 years - another legacy of Soviet era ;-) so you can send me also links in russian - you can post it to my private account ldeska (at) wp (dot) pl so we will not spam this forum which is related to civ4...

PS The author you've mentioned is Henryk Sienkiewicz - he won Noble Prize for his novels which indeed in very interesting way describe the times of Commonwealth (and Grand Duchy of Lithuania of course )

 

[Litvin]

Hi! Concerning Henryk Sienkiewicz - he is among those authors, who influenced me greatly. The first novel of him, which I read was The Crusaders.

Some of my ancestors were from Poland, they moved to Belarus in the end of 18th century. Naturally many Byelarusians have relatives in Poland. Some of my relatives moved to Poland after Lukashenko came to power. now they teach at universities of Poland.

I've sent you a site, where you can find some info. Personally I do not agree with some abstacts, but al in all it is something which can unite the Byelarusians.

 

[Eskel]

I have read this topic with much interest... It is sad that so-close living nations and ex-allies have so much different view on their common history.
I wish we - Polish, Belorussians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians could come to agreement about our past. Especially because our cooperation brought us much prosperity, while misunderstending - so many tragedies. What is more important, any of the successes of the Union couldn't be achived if we acted separately, so we shouldnt deny others part in this great deeds. There wouldn't be a Grunwald's, Orsza's, Chocim's, Kirchholm's or Vienna's victories, if there weren't lithuanians, nor belorussians standing together by one side.

About Vilnius: it was lithuanian city originally. Through many years of Commonwealth it become more polish than lithuanian, because of immigration and polonization of lithuanian nobility. After WWI it was almost completely polonized lithuanian city in the heart of lithuanian lands. Polish invaders, who seized Vilnius in 1920, were Poles, who were born there, or Poles whose ancestors were belorussian or lithuanian as well. Does this have any meaning now? They all fought for land that belonged to their fathers and mothers. I dont see any reason to have quarrel about it.
Vilnius is lithuanian and lithuanian should stay. I think of this in terms of enclosed wheel of time: the whole story returned to its beginning.

How can this be solved in game? There should be mod with separate polish, lithuanian, belarussian and ukrainian civilizatons. I don't think that'll be a serious problem if some city names will be in one time belarussian, polish or lithuanian as well - the same thing had happen to many middle-east or mediterranean cities, and nobody complains (e.g. Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul).

There might be a commonwealth scenario, and in such case Republic(Commonwealth) of the Three Nations civilization should have all - polish, lithuanian and rus' cities as well. Interesting would be a scenario, in which all nations start separated, but can be unified, or simply have positive attitude modifiers that will make diplomacy between them much easier than with other neighbours, and with great chance for permanent alliance.

Greetings to all of you (pozdrawiam was serdecznie)

 

[Litvin]

For ldeska and other people who speak and read Russian one more source to find something new about the History of Belarus:

http://www.petergen.com/history/ermal.shtml#vst

Thanx

 

[NeverMind]

A lot of historical discussion, not much of a mod though.

Litvin, since you are a patriot of GDL and an expert in its history, could you provide us quality portraits of GDL dukes? I'm especially interested in Hedymin and Vitovt.