greek health system collapsing

[Leoreth]

This is exactly what I think Europe should do now.

We tried that, the result was Merkel in Nazi uniform caricatures.

 

[Winner]

Honestly, I'd give them another hundred billion Euros and force them to accept European wide control of many of their governmental functions until a path out of the crisis has been found and significant progress has been made.

This is extremely unrealistic and won't happen, I know.

Well, they're already under oversight (which only few years ago would be unimaginable in Europe), but it clearly isn't enough due to the widespread rot in the state's administration. We'd basically have to replace their whole state bureaucracy with foreigners. That would go veeeery well with ordinary Greeks, I imagine.

Also, there is this thing called democracy we can't throw out of the window completely. I wonder if something like the things we just discussed would be possible even in the US (completely suspending self-governance in a state).

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well, they're already under oversight (which only few years ago would be unimaginable in Europe), but it clearly isn't enough due to the widespread rot in the state's administration. We'd basically have to replace their whole state bureaucracy with foreigners. That would go veeeery well, I imagine.

I don't suggest oversight, I suggest what you say in your last sentence here.

Also, there is this thing called democracy we can't throw out of the window completely. I wonder if something like the things we just discussed would be possible even in the US (completely suspending self-governance in a state).

I don't really see it as a surrender of democracy, just temporary transfer of control from one set of elected officials to another. It's stepping on toes, to say the least and I'm not confident it can or will happen. It's just my 2 cents really.

And I am not sure that it could happen even in the US short of a rebellion, but I don't rule it out entirely.

In any case, I've said over and over that this couldn't actually happen. I just don't have any other viable ideas.

What do you guys think should/could happen?

We tried that, the result was Merkel in Nazi uniform caricatures.

Yeah I've seen that. It's rediculous. I don't fully blame the Greek people for the crisis, but the reaction to the solution that has been offered has been pretty stupid. Rioting, refusing to confront the probelm, blaming non-existant nazis, etc. It's kind of shameful.

 

[Winner]

What do you guys think should/could happen?

We're kind of hoping the Greeks will realize they live in a real world instead of a lalaland and enact the kind of sweeping reforms that are needed to get the country on a track to recovery.

What I fear will happen is Greece failing to do what it promised to the EU/IMF, after which further bailout packages will be suspended and Greece would go bankrupt. After that, who knows. Europe has had time to get ready for it, but we just don't know what will happen. If it triggers a domino effect in the south (Portugal, Spain, Italy... France), then the word crisis will start approaching its true meaning.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

We're kind of hoping the Greeks will realize they live in a real world instead of a lalaland and enact the kind of sweeping reforms that are needed to get the country on a track to recovery.

What I fear will happen is Greece failing to do what it promised to the EU/IMF, after which further bailout packages will be suspended and Greece would go bankrupt. After that, who knows. Europe has had time to get ready for it, but we just don't know what will happen.

What kind of sweeping reforms?

How like do you think it is they won't enact them and go bankrupt?

Will there be a Grexit?

 

[Winner]

What kind of sweeping reforms?

Taxes, welfare, civil service, etc. They need to balance their income/expenditures. They can't be running a 10% deficit each year and expect the rest of Europe to pay the bill.

How like do you think it is they won't enact them and go bankrupt?

Will there be a Grexit?

I am not an economist (and it wouldn't help if I were, they're all clueless just as everyone), I don't know. There is no *legal* procedure for expelling a country from the Eurozone, nor is there one for a country which wants to leave on its own. Greece's default would not necessarily have to lead to its leaving the Eurozone, but some people want that so that Greece could devalue the new currency and regain at least some measure of competitiveness.

(Personally, I think if that happened, Greece would end up being poorer that the currently poorest countries in the EU, Romania and Bulgaria).

 

[dutchfire]

The current situation is really sad and there doesn't seem to be any "easy" way out. Years of softness have made the problems to big to handle now, especially as these times are not easy anyway. Increasing taxes to fight the deficit will only kill whatever is left of their economy. If this wa s an independent country or a business, bankrupting it would be the immediate answer, but the effects of that on the rest of Europe are too unknown to be happy with that solution. Moving in foreign tax collectors might be a solution, but that won't go over well with the population, understandably. The whole thing kinda reminds me of the Dutch Antilles, which have similar financial and government problems. However, that is just 200.000 people, not 10 million.

I agree with Winner that Greece might be in more problems than Romania and Bulgaria. At least Romania and Bulgaria are moving forward and growing. Greece might have reached the point where their kids will be worse of than their parents. Their economy seems to lack competitive industries in general, with the possible exception of tourism, so there is little they can do to make money.

 

[aelf]

That'll teach those healthcare workers. They made the life choice of going into public health service instead of becoming engineers and bankers. They need to be responsible for their own lives.

Plus they've had so many good years of fat paychecks handed to them by the nanny state. Time to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

 

[Dachs]

not who's fault the economic crisis in greece is. ( the answer to this is very obviously goldman sachs)

Those damn dirty Jews and their control over the world financial system.

 

[innonimatu]

Europe has had time to get ready for it, but we just don't know what will happen. If it triggers a domino effect in the south (Portugal, Spain, Italy... France), then the word crisis will start approaching its true meaning.

Domino effect? The whole EU is riddled with debt problems. We don't need Greece to bring it down. It's just a matter of time until all countries get hit with the consequences of the present crazy economics driving the EU. The single market, single currency, free trade with the rest of the world, and wealth concentration are a recipe to disaster and a country doesn't even need all of them to collapse.

 

[FriendlyFire]

So what should the EU do? Give them another hundred billion €uros and tell them "oh, don't worry about austerity, just carry on as usual, spend it all on welfare and get into even bigger debt"? What do you think voters in Germany or the Netherlands - countries which are facing their own problems with the economy - would say to that?

To many in the Eurozone, Greece looks like an addict. As you know, you can only cure an addict when the addict has made the decision to stop using. Giving an addict a shelter and money with no strings attached won't help him, it will only enable his self-destructive behaviour.

The problem here is that nobody believes that Greece has made up its mind to stop using.

Look just let the Germans take over control of the economy govenment country.

 

[Leoreth]

That'll teach those healthcare workers. They made the life choice of going into public health service instead of becoming engineers and bankers. They need to be responsible for their own lives.

Plus they've had so many good years of fat paychecks handed to them by the nanny state. Time to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

The problem with Greece is not that it is a welfare state. The problem is that it is a badly run welfare state. People who are unwilling to acknowledge the difference only discredit the idea of welfare states as a whole.

 

[caketastydelish]

What a shame for greece.

Btw, what do greek women look like?

 

[Winner]

Domino effect? The whole EU is riddled with debt problems. We don't need Greece to bring it down. It's just a matter of time until all countries get hit with the consequences of the present crazy economics driving the EU. The single market, single currency, free trade with the rest of the world, and wealth concentration are a recipe to disaster and a country doesn't even need all of them to collapse.

Yes yes. Let's abolish the EU, close the borders, and return to protectionist mercantilist economy because that had worked so exceptionally well for Europeans the two thousand years before 1957...

Look just let the Germans take over control of the economy govenment country.

Aaand here we go again. To quote a videogame character: "The war's over man, it's... it's over."

 

[Janusi]

By this point, it is no longer the fault of Greece that they are in such a bad situation. The EU is like a doctor that upon discovering that the patient has malaria, decides to cut off the patient's legs. And then criticizes that patient for bleeding out.

 

[del62]

I do think the solution is for Greece to leave the single currency.

Firstly this would increase their competiveness causing a boom in their tourism industry.

Unfortunatley this policy would require too many politicians (in Greece and throughout the eurozone) to admit that they were wrong in there ill fated dreams of a single currency.

So we will keeps stumbling n letting the people of Greece down time again.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yes yes. Let's abolish the EU, close the borders, and return to protectionist mercantilist economy because that had worked so exceptionally well for Europeans the two thousand years before 1957...

Besides, Europe can't afford to return to a protectionist economy; geography meant it doesn't have enough natural resources of its own.

 

[innonimatu]

Yes yes. Let's abolish the EU, close the borders, and return to protectionist mercantilist economy because that had worked so exceptionally well for Europeans the two thousand years before 1957...

Funny that you should put it in that particular way...

It did work "exceptionally well for Europeans", right until around the year you mention. So well in fact that Europe even took up the dead weight of building (and losing) a succession of colonial empires. And I do mean dead weight.

 

[innonimatu]

Besides, Europe can't afford to return to a protectionist economy; geography meant it doesn't have enough natural resources of its own.

I disagree. It has more than enough. Besides, protectionism doesn't mean no trade, it means selective trade.

 

[Winner]

Funny that you should put it in that particular way...

It did work "exceptionally well for Europeans", right until around the year you mention. So well in fact that Europe even took up the dead weight of building (and losing) a succession of colonial empires. And I do mean dead weight.

Yes, two millennia of war, slaughter, strife, and associated misery were so much better than the last 50 years of peace, freedom, and prosperity.

I'll say it again - your value system is completely alien to mine.