BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
Don't blame on his heart,
Please don't blame it in his heart,
Blame it on his youth.
Please don't blame it in his heart,
Blame it on his youth.
GRRM: Says He is late with Winds of
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I don't think he should be forced to try to release the books so that they can keep the TV production on schedule. Write it on your own schedule, old dude, we'll get a better product that way. The people in charge of the TV adaptation can figure out what to do, whether by delaying the next season, or whatever. They knew the books didn't exist when they got started, this isn't on the author. It doesn't even seem that there is a legal agreement between them about it, so let him do whatever he wants, I wouldn't be upset (if I were a fan, I'm really not, I've only watched the first 2 seasons)
And yeah, maybe he'll die before he wraps up the story, but I don't think it's nice to push an old man to do something before he dies anyway.
And yeah, maybe he'll die before he wraps up the story, but I don't think it's nice to push an old man to do something before he dies anyway.
Actually, thinking about this a bit more, I'm pretty sure Martin himself doesn't really care about Asoiaf either. He only seems to be in it out of obligation: to his fans, to the series watchers, and his own legacy in finishing his magnum opus.
Maybe I'm projecting my own disillusionment with his work but ADWD already felt as if he was checking off plot points as quickly as he could with everything being forced and devoid of the initial lightness the series had.
I agree that the TV show should not be his responsibility anymore. Although it must be kind of heartwrenching to see your life's work being subjected to bad writing in the eyes of what suddenly constitutes the majority of the fanbase of his work. Other examples that met similar fates like Fullmetal Alchemist still give hope for that though.
Maybe I'm projecting my own disillusionment with his work but ADWD already felt as if he was checking off plot points as quickly as he could with everything being forced and devoid of the initial lightness the series had.
I agree that the TV show should not be his responsibility anymore. Although it must be kind of heartwrenching to see your life's work being subjected to bad writing in the eyes of what suddenly constitutes the majority of the fanbase of his work. Other examples that met similar fates like Fullmetal Alchemist still give hope for that though.
Synobun
Deity
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I will never understand this argument. They made his work so bad that it's the most popular show to have ever existed? Alright, sure! I missed the memo where "popular = bad" transcended the high school experience.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
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Seasons 1 - 4 made it popular.
Season 5 had the most deviations from the books, and season 5 sucked.
Synobun
Deity
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Did it? I never noticed. Didn't it break records in season 5? I suppose I spent too much time enjoying myself and looking forward to the next season because my expectations fall in line with what the show provides.
Maybe I missed the memo where "you only hate it because it's popular" transcended the college freshman experience.
You're right that popularity is not an indicator of quality, but that goes both ways, appeals to popularity are just as flawed.
This is more in line what I was trying to say. Heck, even though the fandom grew a lot with the show, liking ASoIaF was hardly a fringe interest before so it's not like I'm a "liked it before the adaptation" guy. There's some brilliant stuff in the show, especially the first season.
I never meant to attack you (Synsensa) for enjoying the show. I was mostly focused on the perceived attitude Martin seems to have to his work and its adaptation (which he is no longer directly involved with), and even admitted that it may be colored by my own feelings toward either.
No absolute value judgment, no reason to get defensive.
I for my part will remain waiting for GoT: Brotherhood.
A guy creates a whole new world for us to revel in and enjoy through text, TV, games and who knows what tomorrow; he writes 5,000 pages of story with a multitude of characters and sub plots that could lead numerous places; and people are beetch'n that he isn't Shakespeare and Steven Spielberg in a single body. His slow writing is frustrating. Get over it.
He is a busy man and we are an impatient lot. I say, when you have written a thousand page story and sold it to a million people, then come back and complain about the crappy job GRRM has done with his story.
He is a busy man and we are an impatient lot. I say, when you have written a thousand page story and sold it to a million people, then come back and complain about the crappy job GRRM has done with his story.
jackelgull
An aberration of nature
So what if I'm not successful? Does that mean I can't tell bad literature from a hole in the ground? You prepared to go that far?
By the way, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm not frustrated by the slow release dates. I couldn't care less about the release dates. I just hate some of the sub plots, and the fact that after so much cartoonish villainy, I don't even get shocked or horrified by mentions of rape, I've been so desensitized to the act. At this point, I only care about the sub plots with Jon Snow, Theon Grayjoy, Lord Stannis, Tyrion Lancaster, and Daenerys.
Oerdin
Deity
It already has to a significant degree. Supposedly GRRM gave D&D (the two show writers) a summary of what happens but details still have to be written so this will go well beyond the usual divergence we have seen to date into two totally different beasts with just a handful of shared plot elements.
That isn't a terrible thing because it means only a few plot spoilers but it does mean there will be even bigger differences between the two. Personally, while disappointed I am not surprised and am glad GRRM is at least bothering to keep fans in the information loop.
Yeah, I know it's not really possible to discuss the flaws and merits of a fictional work on the internet.
I'll be back when I'm done finishing my own expansive fantasy series so that I am allowed to voice a critical opinion again.
I'll be back when I'm done finishing my own expansive fantasy series so that I am allowed to voice a critical opinion again.
Not before you also are a multi-millionaire as a result of having an adaptation of said series on tv.
Anyway, a good tv show, or movie, does not mean the original material is artistic or that if anyone criticises it the issue is with the criticism. 300 was one of the most commercially successful movies of recent times, and is by now utterly iconic. Yet i would not seriously term it as a work of high intellect. I like 300, but it is not high art imo at all, it is pop-art, and hits a lot of right notes there so it had massive success.
GRRiM tale of ASOIAF is way too sensationalist and from parts of it i read it is more of a tv script-prose style rather than an actual literary work of note. The series is very popular, although the level of it has declined when the show writers took to actually write the plot, cause unlike Martin they aren't even good as script-writers.
I'll keep watching the show, but have very low expectations of it by now. They made too many absurd errors, such as the march to Castle Black from the side of beyond the Wall, while leading an army of wildlings, cause disembarking with their boats a few meters to the other side, ie the North, would be way too logical
Like any other human creation, neither the show nor the books are perfect, thus leaving plenty to criticize.
But I'd really like anyone who describes either as "bad" to name few literary and cinematic works they consider "average", "good" and "excellent", for there seems to be an entire universe hidden from me then.
Well, I felt addressed by your comment.
Again for the record, I don't think the book or TV series are bad, and have never described them as such. The only thing that came close and actually used the word was when I said the later part of the TV show was subjected to bad writing.
It might be open to misinterpretation, but nowhere does that imply that all writing in season five was bad, that season five in general was bad, that the TV show overall is bad or that the whole corpus of ASoIaF is bad. It just means that there was some bad writing in there. I also clearly presented that as a subjective judgment.
I don't think there is much of a reason to beat around the bush when it comes to media criticism. When I consider something bad, I call it that. There is the widespread underlying assumption in general (internet?) culture that you must dislike a thing once you decide to criticize one aspect of it, and people quickly get defensive about it and start reading into your intention (like Synsensa who out of nowhere assumed I must dislike the show because of its popularity, which I never mentioned at all). That's just ridiculous. I could talk for hours about flaws in most of my favourite works. Hey, ASoIaF still is one of my favorite works of its genre (though not making my top three anymore).
If I thought something was bad I wouldn't care about specific bad things in it so much (unless it's a perfect storm of terribleness I suppose, but it's clearly not in this case).
Again for the record, I don't think the book or TV series are bad, and have never described them as such. The only thing that came close and actually used the word was when I said the later part of the TV show was subjected to bad writing.
It might be open to misinterpretation, but nowhere does that imply that all writing in season five was bad, that season five in general was bad, that the TV show overall is bad or that the whole corpus of ASoIaF is bad. It just means that there was some bad writing in there. I also clearly presented that as a subjective judgment.
I don't think there is much of a reason to beat around the bush when it comes to media criticism. When I consider something bad, I call it that. There is the widespread underlying assumption in general (internet?) culture that you must dislike a thing once you decide to criticize one aspect of it, and people quickly get defensive about it and start reading into your intention (like Synsensa who out of nowhere assumed I must dislike the show because of its popularity, which I never mentioned at all). That's just ridiculous. I could talk for hours about flaws in most of my favourite works. Hey, ASoIaF still is one of my favorite works of its genre (though not making my top three anymore).
If I thought something was bad I wouldn't care about specific bad things in it so much (unless it's a perfect storm of terribleness I suppose, but it's clearly not in this case).
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I'm the opposite of disappointed about it I think, but I'm not really invested in the story yet. To me it just means that there will be eventually 2 stories for me to discover - a cinematic one and a written one. I'll probably make my way through the TV show eventually, and that should be a good time. But then if I so choose I can revisit all the characters by reading the books, and they will have a slightly different story to boot - probably attracting me even more to read the thing.
But I mean, I can see how that might be a position in the minority among fans of the story.
