Hammer of the North v2 PBEM

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Personally, I really like the tech-by-conquest concept, as the viking dillemma between getting the Hammers and accepting Baptism captures the theme of the scenario excellently IMO, and allows the vikings to gradually become christian kingdoms (which would otherwise not be likely).

The vikings' huge advantage is not really tech-wise, its in their huge number of ships, raiders and chiefs from the outset of the game. The ships can bring them important wonders (initially in Kiev and Iceland, and in the new version, Aachen) and allies that the other powers cannot very easily get, even if they can build a few drakkars, or even a whole fleet, or get a stream of missionaries out searching for goody huts. The vikings can get incredibly rich from raiding (killing monks and looting cities), buy new ships and wonders instead of producing them. This far outweighs that the Christian powers can get a few viking techs, IMO, which will in most cases be useless, since The vikings doesn't have a wide range of particular units, and those units are mostly obsoleted by christian techs, Hammers by Baptism, and Raiders by Court of Law.

Conquest doesl get progressively harder for the vikings, especially if they lose too much of their initial advantage, losing too many units in a war. However, a few expeditions along the coasts raiding monks can fill an empty treasury in a manner that is not possible for the other civs.

- Will play my turn shortly. Has been busy all week, sorry for the wait.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

The Saxon rejection of trade was somehow expected by king Charles, who wisely chose to include two offers for the Saxon king.

Frankish forces has been retreated from the disputed territory. If any other the units in the area is a cause for concern, they will be retreated.

Likewise, the Franks request the Saxons retreat their forces from Frankish city squares, staying at least two squares away from any Frankish city in the border area.

This goes especially for the three stacks approaching Trier, including mangonels and a castle taken in possession along the river, which is not considered an act of friendship.

The Frankish king also wishes to know of any Danish business in the area of Liège.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Of course, in game 'talk'... good old Otto will still be spluttering in his mead for awhile Gary

I can imagine!

 

[Patient English]

Personally, I really like the tech-by-conquest concept, as the viking dillemma between getting the Hammers and accepting Baptism captures the theme of the scenario excellently IMO, and allows the vikings to gradually become christian kingdoms (which would otherwise not be likely).

The trouble is, if the Vikings are played by a human, they would just stop taking cities when they were on the verge of getting Baptism (unless they WANTED to become Christian for some reason). And why should sacking Christian cities make them more liable to become Christian themselves?

If you are trying to model the gradually increasing likelihood that the Vikings will become Christian, and less able to raid, why not do this:

Have a unit rather like the Missionary unit at present, but which if killed by a Norse unit (for example) generated a "martyrdom event". This could be the granting of a tech that obsoletes a Norse fighting tech, gives one or more new Missionaries to the Christians or gives the Christians a useful tech to beat off Norse raids. The nature of the event might depend on what type of unit killed the Missionary...Make the only unit(s) able to kill a Missionary something like a Viking King or Chief (who has the "fighter flag" where the Missionary is an Air unit).

Being an air unit with a low move and only a few turns (perhaps only 2) of "fuel", the Missionary could not penetrate too deeply into hostile territory so it would not be easy to get the AI to kill him off.

The human player might be reluctant to kill missionaries, but then they would have to deal with the fact that the Missionary could (temporarily) protect the units it was stacked with.

This would need to be playtested against the AI and humans, but if it worked it might give a better feel than tech-by-conquest. Just an idea....

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Improvements continue throughout the Kingdom.

 

[BKA]

Continued fighting against barbarian tribes.

Other News:
New Heir in Norway emerges.
Frankish abbots hire new recruits.

 

[Arthedain]

Game on!

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

@John,

Interesting idea! I might want to use some parts of that, I especially like the martyrdom aspect. However, one problem would be that these special units could also fly over water.

My point with the tech-by-conquest was precisely, that in order to build an empire and win the game, the vikings desperately need techs, but are faced with losing their pagan weapons, in particular the Hammers, if they get too absorbed into the Christian lands they raid. They have to conquer and plunder to survive, but if they conquer too many cities, they will face accepting baptism. That's the viking dilemma. A human player can easily pursue the pagan weapons and stop conquering, but at the risk that the Christian powers has by then grown too strong to penetrate.

Your idea sparked another idea for me - a king killed could provoke a martyrdom event, effectively creating a martyr (in line with the Giants and other fantastical units). Conversely, if a viking chief is killed, the vikings would receive Valkyries. This would enhance the feeling of 'Ragnarok' or 'End of Days' that the Hammers bring.

Gotta look into how much event space I have left...
---

Bo, how much trouble are the heirs giving you at the present?

 

[Patient English]

Sure, the air flag would mean missionaries could go across water - but they did cross the seas, regularly. Just give the unit icon a small ship in the background, perhaps.

Anyway, maybe you can use the idea somehow, as you say.

 

[Gary J. Durham]

when I checked the site. I had thought I'd simply see if there were any new posts to read, and was caught by suprise that three turns were made so fast. I didn't expect it to be my turn already.
I have it, but pulling a double shift today, home at midnight. Thanksgiving holiday and feast to cook tomorrow... will try to get to it when I can, apologies if it takes me a day or two. ~Gary

 

[BKA]

Bo, how much trouble are the heirs giving you at the present?

Well, not that much...both have been bribed to join Olav instead Maybe you should give him some henchmen so that the uprising is serious?

 

[Patient English]

The Pirates Scenario has been placed on hold - will arrive in TOT format in the future

TOT - a shame. Why that format in particular?

 

[BKA]

First it has been placed on hold because I'm preparing to write my masters in history.

I think that since it is going to be a very events flavoured scenario it is best suited for TOT. Of cause there could always be two versions.

Btw, have borrowed your flags from your Colonies scenario. Hope that's ok?

 

[Gary J. Durham]

Light cavalry unit used for burial detail of the dead at Leige. Saxon fallen being buried with honor... while all 'fondoo' left drying in the sun...

 

[Patient English]

BKA, that's fine, be my guest...

Veteran Mangonel beats Barbarian Spearmen, fortified in a Castle on Grassland/River, and is reduced to 95%

Edinburgh trade maximised...

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Gary, you leave me in a very difficult spot. I retreated all my units, expected you to do the same. I will have a very difficult time not attacking that unit of horsemen on a Frankish abbey... If you really want that Abbey, what can you offer me in return? - I'd be willing to let it go, if you'll be willing to share Saxon technologies.

 

[Gary J. Durham]

Sorry, Morten... I've no desire to put you in "A difficult spot" as you put it. It is a light cavalry unit, not worth much in the terms of offensive fire power. Not sure what you may (or may not) have defending your city, but it is the least threatening unit of which I own to occupy the Abby.

And... how do you know this was a "frank" abbey? There are three (3) abby's at that locale, and I seem to recall that I was using two (2) of them, while you 'had' the use of the third abbey. Of course... this was before your so very successful use (and complete suprise to me! by using bribe money to take a couple of my cities. And, of course, before you GUTTED one of my major cities!

But... "Spoils of War" (or was that something about crying over spilled milk?) and all that rot! You came out smelling like a rose, and taught me an important lesson (i.e. I never considered a human player warring against a fellow human player with bribes, as explained to you. Kind of think... er, THOUGHT... of it as a 'no-no'. Thanks for educating me .

While that cavalry unit IS only one square out of your city... it is ALSO only one square out of mine. Hmm. I think I can see the dilemna! Boy, with you, me and the Danes all crowded into this little vacinity... boy, talk about a 'flashpoint caldron!

Um... not sure what to do.
Let me think about it a bit... maybe we (both?) can come up with a solution. However, you know me from games past, and I can assure you that I have no intention of attacking you. (If I did, it wouldn't have been a small cavalry unit.) Of course, please note that I have now stated PUBLICLY that I (not 'Otto') have no plans on attacking, which is my word with all the players and readers as witness, so this should count for something, even if you do doubt my integrity.

I do, however, expect to defend the hell out of our 'new' common border, much as I'm defending my borders with Danes, Norse, etc.

As for any German tech that you may be interested in... please, feel free to let me know which one, or ones, that you are interested in, and I will get back to you with a price. Gold is ALWAYS good... but if you are strapped for cash, there are always other considerations (Techs, Territories, Treaties, etc). We should be able to work something out.

 

[Patient English]

Play on chaps....

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

@Gary,
To show our good will and peaceful intentions, the Franks have refrained from destroying your horsemen. But the Franks ask two things of the Saxons, to maintain this peace :

* Immediate retreat of any German forces within the city influence of a Frankish city (including the horseman, but also the stack in the castle in the Ardennes).
* A symbolic compensation for the Frankish Abbey, paid in technology or gold. [edit:] I checked an earlier save, and the Abbey was in fact neither Frankish nor German, before I entered it with my spearman (which started the whole affair). So in fact, none of us have a legitimate claim to it, except I occupied the Abbey first, and you wrongfully claimed it to be German.

 

[Gary J. Durham]

@Morten:

Actually, the Abby was in my possession initially. Unfortunately, it prevented any population growth for my city. As such, I temporarily switched resources to a grasslands hex, in order to increase the city size by one, for security in case of possible attack loses (i.e. destroyed city). As such:

One, you are asking me to pay you for 'my' own abby... or you have declared war against me!

Secondly, you are ORDERING me to not DEFEND my border from further incursions from your forces... or again you have declared war against me!

Morten, it would appear that either one of these statements made by you... especially the both of them combined, are in fact, a direct declaration of war against me. If that is your desire (it sounds like it), then you should have killed the light cavalry. I'm at a loss as to why you would NOT kill it as you declared war against me.

It would appear that you have just FORCED yourself... into receiving the same "symbolic compensation" for my Abby, as you paid me for the willful and deliberate destruction of my Monastary.

So, we are now again at war?