Has Microsoft stumbled?

Could Microsoft be in trouble?

  • Yes, Microsoft is doomed now

    Votes: 12 18.5%
  • Yes but they can recover from there errors

    Votes: 20 30.8%
  • No

    Votes: 28 43.1%
  • No opinion

    Votes: 5 7.7%

  • Total voters
    65
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Microsoft made a great choice of underlying aesthetic: signage brings real-world familiarity, a useful degree of abstraction is built-in. It should even be easy to implement, but they often messed that up.

@ Zelig: All-caps for no good reason is a blunder. The overall layout would have been fine for the previous style with understated skeuomorphy and fake 3d. Without those, it needs serious cleaning up - still busy and now lacks visual clues to make the clutter natural and intuitive.
As such, your reply to civ_king seems off.
 
You're bad at aesthetics.

Tommy may be part of a vocal minority, but you don't come across too well yourself by dismissing everyone's concerns as something wrong with them.
 
Tommy may be part of a vocal minority, but you don't come across too well yourself by dismissing everyone's concerns as something wrong with them.

My replies should be taken about as seriously as the posts they're replying to.

Microsoft pretty extensively focus tests its designs, and independent designers are generally pretty happy with the Metro direction.

The all-caps menus are really a pretty minor deal either way, they're like that for consistency between products, but if someone hadn't pointed it out to me, I never would have noticed.

"Such an ugly UI" is hardly warranted, or a legitimate attempt at discussion.

@ Zelig: All-caps for no good reason is a blunder. The overall layout would have been fine for the previous style with understated skeuomorphy and fake 3d. Without those, it needs serious cleaning up - still busy and now lacks visual clues to make the clutter natural and intuitive.

"Intuitive" isn't really a thing with computer UI design, what people mean when they say "intuitive" is "familiar".

(Save a very few exceptions, such as the pinch-to-zoom mechanism.)
 
For most users, how it looks is the important thing. For power users, how it works is the important thing.

My grandmother doesn't give two hoots about _anything_ that Zelig cares about. She uses her computer to read and send email, and that is it. She has an icon on the desktop for her email, and she really doesn't use anything else. It doesn't matter to her how well her operating system handles multiple monitors or copying files or managing memory or anything else. She just wants to like how it looks, and changing anything about its looks is risky.

My father cares about how the operating system works. He has to fix my grandmother's computer remotely every time she accidentally clicks somewhere else. He does a lot of setup and repair of computer systems, and while he might have preferences about the look of the OS, they are minor compared to his preferences about how well it works. He thinks my grandmother should care about the things he cares about, too, but she doesn't. I don't think she should, either.

The people who need operating systems vary greatly in what they want from their OS. Tommy can't see why people like Win8, because the things it does better are things that don't matter to him. Zelig can't see why people hate Win8, because he doesn't care about the things it does worse for them. Win8 is going to be good for some people, but not all, and we are never going to agree on if it is good, because we all want different things from our OS.

Note: I am not comparing Tommy to my grandmother. I'm merely offering her as an extreme example of the part of the market whose needs are far from Zelig's.
 
It doesn't sound your grandmother cares about looks, it sounds like she just doesn't like change.

I understand that various people don't like Win8 because they don't like change or because they're misinformed about Win8 or because they just don't like Windows. Only the second category are really a problem. If you don't like change, keep using your DOS machine or whatever, I don't care. If you don't like Windows, use Mac OS or Mint.
 
@ Zelig:

No kitchen table psychology please, claiming you know exactly what's wrong with anyone who holds a different opinion from you isn't very productive... and you make enough interesting points that I'd rather have a reasonable discussion than engage in rhetorics and mudslinging.

If people mean unfamiliar when they complain about something being unintuitive, they are best ignored. Same as people who can't tell the difference between "that's good" and "I like that". In both cases, there is a difference.
Pinch-to-zoom isn't a rare exception of inherently intuitive design, it's just one of the more obvious examples of matching the right input to the right action . Intuitive UI design often boils down to being consistent with the interface metaphor.

Example: Skeuomorphy wins some points initially because it's giving off clear visual clues... but then loses some because the interface doesn't deliver on its promises (without becoming excessively quaint - i.e. you can't just turn pages in a book, you can rip them off, make dog ears and so on).
In OSX, it matches the input style (drag&drop heavy, close to physical manipulation, avoiding computery gimmicks like tiling/snapping) and is a legitimate choice... even if I don't care for it.
In something abstract and sharp (e.g. copious use of tiling, optimised for vi-like input) it would be terrible.


In many new Windows applications, familiarity is the only thing that keeps [EDIT: the interface] from sucking hard... or more accurately, keeping people from realising that it sucks.

For reference, take the first image in the wikipedia entry of Visual Studio 2012. That tab-like header barely recognisable as such? People accept it because they got used to something similar in an aesthetic where it made sense. The drop-down menu? Without an effect in the header there's nothing to reinforce its position or coherence and it looks dropped somewhere haphazardly. The scrollbars? Nothing functionally wrong, but a relic from the past that doesn't fit in.
The whole thing desperately needs some cues, if not with gradients and shadows then something else (colour maybe). All of those are worse than the shouting.

This is not a fresh new interface carefully made to new design guidelines. Someone took a Vista-era interface, brutally squished it flat and called it a day.

*

@ recent discussion at large:

How interfaces look, and to a large extent how things behave, is technically shallow. In many ways some ancient interfaces beat what's common today because those shallow but oh-so-important bits can be modified without much difficulty.
 
I really don't feel OS X (nor Windows) is at all intuitive in general. If you take someone who's never used a computer and give them a very basic task ("Type this sentence, and then print it"), they'll be utterly lost on either system.

Obviously there are plenty of ways to make good and bad interface decisions, I just object to the term "intuitive" being used, there are almost better, more meaningful descriptors that can be applied.

(And really, even if you allow for "intuitive" interfaces, it's not something I care about at all - I care primarily about efficiency, secondarily about not being aesthetically awful.)
 
Note that I used "natural and intuitive" in a specific context: The complaint that shape and position of certain interface elements make little sense without the details removed in Windows 8. I think my follow-up should have made my meaning clear, and I think my choice of words wasn't off.

"Intuitive" interface design to me isn't only restricted to "total newbies can make sense of it quickly" but also includes "subtly guides eye and mind to reduce cognitive load", which can matter even for users who know it inside out.
I agree that there are good interfaces that don't even try (and make up for it in sheer efficiency once you internalised their quirks), but those are of no interest to the vast majority of computer users.
Those that try should do it well.

*

A clean interface can work because there's little to distract the user.
A frilly interface can work because the frills bring structure to it, and highlight which interface elements belong together.
That Visual Studio example shows a design for frills, without the frills. It only makes sense if you mentally substitute what's missing.

The same applies to many things that were adjusted to fit the Windows 8 aesthetic. Maybe redesigning things properly isn't in the cards because a bigger change to make things internally consistent would alienate more users.
 
Tommy really only cares about the Start Menu as far as I can tell.

I care about desktop computing. I don't give a crap about Metro or touch based interface. The desktop is what Windows should focus on.
 
I care about desktop computing. I don't give a crap about Metro or touch based interface. The desktop is what Windows should focus on.

Thankfully for you, the desktop in Windows 8 is better than the desktop in Windows 7.

If you're not satisfied with the Windows desktop, the Mac OS desktop is good, as are several Linux ones.
 
Thankfully for you, the desktop in Windows 8 is better than the desktop in Windows 7.

If you're not satisfied with the Windows desktop, the Mac OS desktop is good, as are several Linux ones.


No Start Menu=Epic fail

The Windows 8 desktop sucks because of this.
 
No Start Menu=Epic fail

The Windows 8 desktop sucks because of this.
What exactly do you mean by Start Menu?
Do you mean the little flag thing in the bottom left corner where if you click it some program applications come up and access to the control panel/devices?
I, for one, never use it except to launch powerpoint/excel because I'm too lazy to create desktop icons for them. Everything is either run off the desktop, steam, or I open up Windows Explorer and use the search function there.
 
How is my usage of Windows 8 sucking without a start menu?

Yours isn't. Tommy's is.

It is like having a pink bicycle. For some people, the color is a big deal. For other people it isn't.
 
Considering how Microsoft has caved in on the DRM and used games on the X1, they might give in and bring back the start menu in 8.2 or Windows 9. If anything they should make it an option for people who want it. If 8.1 does little to change sales it will help which I am predicting will be the case. Once again Microsoft will have to admit defeat.
 
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