Help for an atheist going to church

[ParadigmShifter]

Funnily enough, one of my cousins put his relationship with God ahead of his relationship with his wife so much she ran off with a builder.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Back in the Catholic school system, I'd find the hymns and sometimes the sermons (especially if the pastor is an interesting speaker) enjoyable, even if I didn't believe in the spirit behind it. But all the other parts just make me wish I was back at my desk.

 

[MobBoss]

well, here's a quote then

"Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands." - Ephesians 5:21-24

As usual, someone takes a single quote from the entire bible and tries to use it as evidence to support their point. This is called out of context.

There are litterally hundreds of passages on how husbands and wives are to treat each other and how to love one another. Without appreciating the whole, you cant make an informed opinion on what your talking about.

For example. The verse just prior to your cherry pick says:

Eph 5:17-21

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.[c]

Bold part for you to contemplate.

Also what about just after your cherry pick:

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

You see, husbands have probably even more rules to follow than their wives do in how to treat their spouse. Its certainly not 'all about the man' as you would allege.

Like I said, its ignorance to quite the bible out of context and to claim thus and so. I really dont think you want to argue this point with me. Your not going to win.

 

[kiwitt]

Love and affection for each comes first in our relationship ... so I don't foresee this becoming a problem. We are first and foremost as a united couple before anything else. What we have been through apart and together has strengthened us and brought us close together.

As to the bible's view on what our relationship should be, we will both take that with a grain of salt, as I think after 20+ years we know a little bit about how a good relationship works.

 

[JollyRoger]

However, depending on how far she actually decides to go in her belief/faith, that whole 'I dont believe in God' thing can be a deal breaker....even after 20 years of marriage.

So are you saying that a believer would break a vow to their spouse for not graciously submitting to enforcing gracious submission?

 

[Camikaze]

Good on you for giving it a go. I reckon atheists would love my church, so hopefully you've found (or can find) something similar. And that's how it should be. If a church is off-putting and unwelcoming, then it's not doing its job.

Could I ask, kiwitt, what denomination is this church?

 

[MobBoss]

Thanks for that. We are both very happy with each other and how we treat each other. I am proud of her and she is proud of me.

I met my wife in 1977 in high school (we separated briefly, while she left with her parents overseas and likewise myself) and have know her ever since and wrote the occasional letter, until we got back together again more formally in early 1987.

We now support each other in whatever the other wants to do.

Then I suggest that this scripture seems pertinent to me in your situation:

1 Corinthians 7:12

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

[kiwitt]

@camikaze: Anglican - where she was christened.

Incidently, I was christened as a Catholic, but my parents never continued this.

@MobBoss: Nicely put.


Btw: After I told her I did not believe in God, she said I did not have to come, but I said I will, to support her in her understanding and exploration of God.

 

[galdre]

never mind

 

[asbestos]

Sacrificial Temples > Christian Churches

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well as I understand this guy is an atheist anyway so quoting the bible aint gonna do much. He just wants to spend time with his wife...

 

[MobBoss]

interesting that "subject to" is used for women and slaves... unfortunately I don't have my concordance any more so I can't see if the original word is the same

Again, if the best you can do is cherry pick and try to claim its indicative of the whole bible, its a fail effort on your part.

Husbands have to be subject to someone as well. In particularly...God. This is the hierarchy I was referring to earlier, and fwiw, the husband has even more restrictions put upon them than the spouse does. Far more responsibilities to her in fact.

What you ultimately fail in appreciating here is the servanthood mentality required by God of everyone up and down the hierarchy. If the husband is doing his job right, and following God with all of his heart, strength and mind, then its natural for his wife to be subject to him just as its natural for him to treat her with love and kindness as commanded.

I know Christians claim the Bible isn't sexist, and bend over backwards trying to prove it, but it's just now so.

I never claimed it wasnt sexist...of course it is...but its sexist in a complimentary way in simply recognizing an obvious truth: that men and women are indeed different. Its certainly not what you have claimed it is.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

And men are higher in the hierarchy than women?



It's spanking time

 

[kiwitt]

It's spanking time

I love it.

 

[MobBoss]

And men are higher in the hierarchy than women?

Well, in any partnership, someone has to have the final word. It doesnt mean the wife has to always agree with him or even like the decision, but, if he is truly being subjective himself to God, it will work itself out. Ultimately, its a trust issue. It does not mean that the husband can make demands of his wife without regard to her feelings. Any Christian husband who thinks that is doing it wrong.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I know Mathilda doesn't like having her picture posted on this site

Spoiler :

That's a joke BTW, she lives in Scandinavia so would be more pasty than the spank woman

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well, in any partnership, someone has to have the final word. It doesnt mean the wife has to always agree with him or even like the decision, but, if he is truly being subjective himself to God, it will work itself out. Ultimately, its a trust issue. It does not mean that the husband can make demands of his wife without regard to her feelings. Any Christian husband who thinks that is doing it wrong.

Did you not read the thread title where he says he is an atheist?

 

[JollyRoger]

This seems to imply that if the non-beliver doesn't shape up, the believer will end the deal:

However, depending on how far she actually decides to go in her belief/faith, that whole 'I dont believe in God' thing can be a deal breaker....even after 20 years of marriage.

Yet if she did, she would be breaking this:

1 Corinthians 7:12

12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

So it would seem like if she really is a believer and goes far in her belief, there should be no worry that the vow will be broken.

Well, in any partnership, someone has to have the final word. It doesnt mean the wife has to always agree with him or even like the decision, but, if he is truly being subjective himself to God, it will work itself out. Ultimately, its a trust issue. It does not mean that the husband can make demands of his wife without regard to her feelings. Any Christian husband who thinks that is doing it wrong.

Which makes the prophets pretty fun reading - God treats his worshippers metaphorically as women. Sometimes as brides or brides/whores. It must cause some tension among more than a few when they realize their ordained role in the God-worshipper relationship.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The main reason, I go is because I love my wife. But I also enjoy the singing and the general happy an friendly place a church is. While I don't believe in words or the sermons and rituals, I do believe in the sense of love that is in this place.

So for the time being, I will attend church and help my wife discover her beliefs in her own way.

Sounds like you don't need any help

Church to me is more than the religion that is practised in it. It's also a community event. There are even lessons and truths in the sermons for those who don't believe.

I also enjoyed it when I went.

(By the way, I didn't read the thread. Just your OP. I think that'd be best )

 

[kiwitt]

Sounds like you don't need any help

Correct.

But I have received a wealth of support and understanding, which nobody can really get too much of.