[BTS] Help me master the basics, learn the intermediate and begin to understand the expert

[Gwaja]

Why do you say that? Are there rules governing the map generation or is it an intuition kind of thing or both?

Just a personal intuition more than anything. I was pretty sure that one of the brown tiles was gonna have another resource of some kind, and it turns out to be a plains cow. Not all that important stuff really.

I agree with Pedro for your next settling priority. I would also suggest that you start planning for barbarian defense of sort. You would obviously have to take your chance at either Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry to find horses or copper, but if they are not readily available, you may not have much choice other than to go for Archery. Like previously mentioned by someone, scouting around the capital in all directions is helpful.

Preferably, 2nd city should grab either the copper or the horse, but it doesn't always work out that way. Then again, gold mines are just too good to pass up. ^_^

 

[pigswill]

Have to agree that you can ignore AIs early game and focus instead on establishing your empire. Before thinking about archery for barbs you need to scout the neighborhood and get techs for early military units, BW (need for whipping anyway) and AH (need to improve pasture resources anyway) then plan spawn busting and settling cities to acquire horses and/or copper. If you can't spawnbust adequately or improve and connect military resources you may need to consider archery but that's several turns away.

Question of AH before BW is slightly complex. Its a question of how many turns it will take to be able to whip a settler (grow to pop4, get 40+ hammers into settler build) compared to how many turns to research AH>BW. If it takes eg 15 turns before you can whip settler and 20 turns to research AH>BW then you're delaying settler whip and thus delaying founding of second city. If they both take e.g.18 turns then its clearly better to go AH first. Another argument for getting AH>BW is that you'll locate horse and copper before settling second city so you can settle more optimally. Going AH first also allows you to improve plains cows (3f 3h) which speeds up everything.

Civ4 is a bit complicated and the learning curve is steep at the start.

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

There are situations where delaying AH makes sense, but for learning purpose i would say you cannot go wrong with wanting to improve those cows first before BW. 7 yield tile
Getting such strong tiles early gives a nice foundation for all games.

But more important than which you pick first, will be that you understand what BW first means.
With +9 food after improving both corn and rice, you want to grow size 4 and use slavery for your first settler. Even 1 floodplains as 3rd tile for growing.
Nice learning effect as well.

I've just played around with this, and if I go AH first I get my first settler in less than 9 turns and BW still has 10 turns to go... So it would seem if I go BW first I would get my settler sooner. Thoughts?

nice land to overlap cottages, i don't usually work cottages but this one seems nice.
and at least 3 happy resources, gold which needs only mining, phants which needs hunting, and wine which needs monarchy.
plus 3 healthy resources +2 with granary.

and your friend Lincoln have silk which you can take later

Should be good for a few extra early whips I say

@Lazarus_Cato
From where you are I would scout a bit in the South-East looking for food resources. If no food (or dry rice / ground cows), I would settle 3S1E to work the gold and share the rice. Will be a nice helper city to grow cottages as well.

My instinct was telling me to go 3W1N to grab all that flood-plains before Lincoln gets it... Tell me why 3S1E is better? And as @Gwaja and @pigswill postulate I'm thinking copper or horses would take precedent in either case?

Lincoln is usually not much of a threat. He usually won't attack you unless he's annoyed and is in a dominant position. Plus he is usually easy to take out early as he doesn't build many units.
Hammy is, most of the time, stronger than Lincoln, but still not much of a warmonger. He cannot attack at pleased, and doesn't attack at cautious most of the time. If you share a religion with him, you're almost 100% sure not to get attacked. However, be careful about early rushes against Hammy, as his Bowmen get +50% against Melee units.

Thanks!

Well let me highlight what Lymond wrote several times..
you should not think about AIs currently @LC, they are only distractions for learning what's really important first. If none would be there, that would best ~~

Yeah I know, never the less they are there. I know AZ usually assigns EP's pretty quick off the bat once discovering a couple of AI which is why I ask, I just wanted to know who and why you prioritise 1 over the other.

Just a personal intuition more than anything. I was pretty sure that one of the brown tiles was gonna have another resource of some kind, and it turns out to be a plains cow. Not all that important stuff really.

I agree with Pedro for your next settling priority. I would also suggest that you start planning for barbarian defense of sort. You would obviously have to take your chance at either Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry to find horses or copper, but if they are not readily available, you may not have much choice other than to go for Archery. Like previously mentioned by someone, scouting around the capital in all directions is helpful.

Preferably, 2nd city should grab either the copper or the horse, but it doesn't always work out that way. Then again, gold mines are just too good to pass up. ^_^

See above about BW before AH and 3W1N vs 3S1E and give me your thoughts.

Have to agree that you can ignore AIs early game and focus instead on establishing your empire. Before thinking about archery for barbs you need to scout the neighborhood and get techs for early military units, BW (need for whipping anyway) and AH (need to improve pasture resources anyway) then plan spawn busting and settling cities to acquire horses and/or copper. If you can't spawnbust adequately or improve and connect military resources you may need to consider archery but that's several turns away.

Question of AH before BW is slightly complex. Its a question of how many turns it will take to be able to whip a settler (grow to pop4, get 40+ hammers into settler build) compared to how many turns to research AH>BW. If it takes eg 15 turns before you can whip settler and 20 turns to research AH>BW then you're delaying settler whip and thus delaying founding of second city. If they both take e.g.18 turns then its clearly better to go AH first. Another argument for getting AH>BW is that you'll locate horse and copper before settling second city so you can settle more optimally. Going AH first also allows you to improve plains cows (3f 3h) which speeds up everything.

Civ4 is a bit complicated and the learning curve is steep at the start.

Yeah based on that, I'm thinking it would be better to go BW first here.

PS: I know it's shunned to replay turns, but I want to go deep into the mechanics and understand the thought process behind each choice. I hope you don't think less of me for this.

 

[lymond]

I know it's shunned to replay turns, but I want to go deep into the mechanics and understand the thought process behind each choice. I hope you don't think less of me for this.

Yeah...that is fine. I'm all for it. Just trying to give perspective because what you were actually "testing" in that particular situation was not a reality in a normal game. In other words, you are testing based on information you really should not have. In this particular situation, i.e., determining best spot to settler or SIP, I think it is better to analyze the information you do have at your disposable based on tiles viewable, warrior move, and fog analysis. That, to me, is more important that testing different spots based on information you otherwise would not have.

Otherwise, replaying turns right now is fine. In fact, and I mentioned it early, practice the first 50 to 100 turns here with the advice, and then do it over again. Nothing wrong with that.

I believe the point My was making about AH, was that for learning purposes right now getting the tech(s) for the strong tiles present in BFC is the better way to go. She is a great player, so listen to her. I think you are fine going AH or BW either way. A bit slower settler is not going to hurt you much here. Going AH I would start settler at size 3 and finish straight up with the strong rice, corn, and cow tiles. (Note: As you move up levels, you do have to sometimes make choices between techs like this. BW is almost always a very good early tech because of the benefits to production with chops and whips. AH is an expensive tech that is sometimes sacrificed - except ofc if your main food is pastures anyway. For example, I might have a wet corn and hill pigs in my BFC at the start on high levels. I might often prioritize BW early after AG, and forgo AH until later - likely trade - and mine the hill pigs for an otherwise strong early tile. Again, you do not have to really think much about all this quite yet, rather the point is making good choices right now)

I'll be out most of the evening, but will check in later. I'm not sure where you are at the moment in the game, but I would focus on getting that first settler out at Size 3 and then stop and post then. Warrior(s) continue to scout immediate area and then find good spawnbust locations.

 

[Lain]

I would settle 3S1E next aswell. Reasons:

1) Floodplains by themselves can be a poisoned chalice in the early game. They require quite a few worker turns to get going and you usually don't have that capacity in the beginning. A farm takes 8 turns and you don't get much return on that invest for some time. You'd rather want to chop, build roads and improve (food) resources with the few (or one) worker(s) you have. If commerce allows, it's also preferable to have a productive 2nd and/or 3rd city. The gold site (3S1E) can work Rice + Gold at size 2 and get out a few workers or units.

2) With this much food in the capital my first thought is to share it with my 2nd city. A rather prominent idea in AZ's videos aswell. With Corn + Rice your capital will grow too fast and you are limited by the happy cap. So it's not like you can just whip every 5 turns there. Would be a shame to let the food go to waste. Conveniently, the gold also improves your happy cap.

3) If you go BW first, the gold will speed up your research of Animal Husbandry, Pottery etc. 3W1N could become city #3 and immediately work the (pastured) cows. I would also go BW first here, grow the capital to size 4 and proabably whip a settler, without caring about overflow. Rather than chopping furiously, the worker could prepare the roads and be ready to improve the gold in time.

4) Such a big commerce boost early on is kind of a big deal and I would give up more than a few floodplains to gain that.

5) Even then, you won't really lose the floodplains. Even the most aggressive AI won't settle right on your borders here. Rather, Lincoln might settle between the Rice, Oasis and Stone (on the desert hill). Not too much you can (or want to) do about that anyway.

 

[Pedro78]

And as @Gwaja and @pigswill postulate I'm thinking copper or horses would take precedent in either case?

I wasn't sure about the date where the barbs begin entering your borders on Monarch (usually T40 onwards on Deity and T45+ onwards on Immortal). In a couple of test (monarch) games I did not find any barbs enter my borders before T75 (1000BC), which means you should definitely priorize economic development over barb defense right now. Therefore, 3S1E seems like the best second city spot (not much to add to what Lain already said).

With this much food in the capital my first thought is to share it with my 2nd city. A rather prominent idea in AZ's videos aswell.

@Lazarus_Cato you should definitely watch and re-watch every single of AZ's videos . 3/4 of my Civ4 knowledge comes from there. The other 1/4 come from the Civ illustrated guides, you should also take some time to study these, they are awesome :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=478563
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=546356
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547564
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=548667

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

I believe the point My was making about AH, was that for learning purposes right now getting the tech(s) for the strong tiles present in BFC is the better way to go. She is a great player, so listen to her. I think you are fine going AH or BW either way. A bit slower settler is not going to hurt you much here. Going AH I would start settler at size 3 and finish straight up with the strong rice, corn, and cow tiles. (Note: As you move up levels, you do have to sometimes make choices between techs like this. BW is almost always a very good early tech because of the benefits to production with chops and whips. AH is an expensive tech that is sometimes sacrificed - except ofc if your main food is pastures anyway. For example, I might have a wet corn and hill pigs in my BFC at the start on high levels. I might often prioritize BW early after AG, and forgo AH until later - likely trade - and mine the hill pigs for an otherwise strong early tile. Again, you do not have to really think much about all this quite yet, rather the point is making good choices right now)

Okay, I will go AH first for the experience.

I would settle 3S1E next aswell. Reasons:

1) Floodplains by themselves can be a poisoned chalice in the early game. They require quite a few worker turns to get going and you usually don't have that capacity in the beginning. A farm takes 8 turns and you don't get much return on that invest for some time. You'd rather want to chop, build roads and improve (food) resources with the few (or one) worker(s) you have. If commerce allows, it's also preferable to have a productive 2nd and/or 3rd city. The gold site (3S1E) can work Rice + Gold at size 2 and get out a few workers or units.

2) With this much food in the capital my first thought is to share it with my 2nd city. A rather prominent idea in AZ's videos aswell. With Corn + Rice your capital will grow too fast and you are limited by the happy cap. So it's not like you can just whip every 5 turns there. Would be a shame to let the food go to waste. Conveniently, the gold also improves your happy cap.

3) If you go BW first, the gold will speed up your research of Animal Husbandry, Pottery etc. 3W1N could become city #3 and immediately work the (pastured) cows. I would also go BW first here, grow the capital to size 4 and proabably whip a settler, without caring about overflow. Rather than chopping furiously, the worker could prepare the roads and be ready to improve the gold in time.

4) Such a big commerce boost early on is kind of a big deal and I would give up more than a few floodplains to gain that.

5) Even then, you won't really lose the floodplains. Even the most aggressive AI won't settle right on your borders here. Rather, Lincoln might settle between the Rice, Oasis and Stone (on the desert hill). Not too much you can (or want to) do about that anyway.

Point(s) taken, case made.

I wasn't sure about the date where the barbs begin entering your borders on Monarch (usually T40 onwards on Deity and T45+ onwards on Immortal). In a couple of test (monarch) games I did not find any barbs enter my borders before T75 (1000BC), which means you should definitely priorize economic development over barb defense right now. Therefore, 3S1E seems like the best second city spot (not much to add to what Lain already said).

@Lazarus_Cato you should definitely watch and re-watch every single of AZ's videos . 3/4 of my Civ4 knowledge comes from there. The other 1/4 come from the Civ illustrated guides, you should also take some time to study these, they are awesome :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=478563
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=546356
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547564
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=548667

Yeah AZ is great, I think I need to study them more than watch them for entertainment purposes, some of the things he does I see but don't understand (yet) and those illustrated guides are awesome, I've skimmed parts of 1 and 3 before - will study them more... thanks!



Turnset:
T016 - Warrior 1SE, worker farm corn, tech AH, build warrior
T017 - Warrior 1SE - revealed marble and fish
T018 - Meet Hannibal coming from the north, worst enemy is/of Lincoln, warrior 1S
T019 - Warrior 1NE
T020 - Warrior 1NE
T021 - Farmed corn, farming rice, warrior 1NE
T022 - Warrior 1NW, Kyoto size 2 - working corn and rice
T023 - Warrior 1W
T024 - Warrior 1NE
T025 - Hinduism founded in a foriegn land, warrior 1E
T026 - Hammy founds and converts to hinduism, warrior 1E - revealed pig, farmed rice worker to cow, Kyoto to size 3

My question now is (and I know I'm quibbling over details), do I go straight to settler (10 turns) or finish warrior (2-3 turns) - I can grow in 2 or 3 turns depending on what I work. I'm thinking it might be worth it just to finish the warrior in 3 and grow to size 4 in 2...

Edit:
Thoughts on Hannibal?

 

[Pedro78]

With double 5+ food tiles in the starting BFC, you can definitely grow to size 4 before building the first settler. I would definitely have teched BW first, though. On higher difficulties you should almost never tech AH for a single plain cows, most of the time one should better wait for Alpha and then get AH for free. Oh and this is not "details", every move is important ^^

Hannibal is a rather solid AI. Strong techer and somewhat dangerous warmonger. I don't think he will be too much of a problem on Monarch, though.

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

With double 5+ food tiles in the starting BFC, you can definitely grow to size 4 before building the first settler. I would definitely have teched BW first, though. On higher difficulties you should almost never tech AH for a single plain cows, most of the time one should better wait for Alpha and then get AH for free. Oh and this is not "details", every move is important ^^

Yeah, I wasn't really sold on AH first, but we'll roll with it.

Hannibal is a rather solid AI. Strong techer and somewhat dangerous warmonger. I don't think he will be too much of a problem on Monarch, though.

Good to know

T027 - AH>BW, warrior 1NE
T028 - Kyoto to size 4, warrior 1NE
T029 - Start settler, warrior-2 sent to 3S1E, warrior-1 1N
T030 - Warrior-1 1N
T031 - Meet Julius Caesar coming from the NE, pasture on cow complete, settler in 5, BW in 8, warrior-1 N1

My question(s)/comments now are...

1. What should my worker do now? I'm working an unimproved tile (flood plains) and don't have pottery... If I'm going to settle 3S1E, I was thinking I should road 2S1E and with the rivers this should connect the cities, correct?
2. What's Julius Caesar like?
3. It feels like I should be focusing my EP's on somebody... What do you factor in when deciding this?

Spoiler screenshot: :

 

[lymond]

I would get up a mine or two on the grass hills, should be enough time to get that road in..and yes, that 1 road should hook up the cities..good thinking

JC is a warmonger, but not a psycho. (Psychos, if you haven't figured it out yet, are Monty, Shaka, Alex, Nappy, Rags, Genghis) Highest Unit prob AIs are Nappy, Shaka, Mehmed and Rags.

By the way, there is a great article in the Strategy Article subforum here which I will link below:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-3#post-11931785

Basically, a team put that together from the coded information that was previously collected by another player. Really helps in understanding how the different leaders work, diplo stuff, and what they prioritize. Note the item about who plots at "Please" or not.

So anyway, I would not be too worried about JC for a while.

oh wait..you've started your settler..maybe get that road up now

Hannibal is probably the most logical AI to focus EPs on now. General rule is to focus them on the fastest techer like Mansa, Pacal, Darius, Willem (see pattern). There are some non-FIN AIs that tend to tech well, but the 4 are the usual suspects. EP stuff is far from something I'm worried about for you right now, but certainly does not hurt to passively focus them on someone.

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

I would get up a mine or two on the grass hills, should be enough time to get that road in..and yes, that 1 road should hook up the cities..good thinking

JC is a warmonger, but not a psycho. (Psychos, if you haven't figured it out yet, are Monty, Shaka, Alex, Nappy, Rags, Genghis) Highest Unit prob AIs are Nappy, Shaka, Mehmed and Rags.

By the way, there is a great article in the Strategy Article subforum here which I will link below:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-3#post-11931785

Basically, a team put that together from the coded information that was previously collected by another player. Really helps in understanding how the different leaders work, diplo stuff, and what they prioritize. Note the item about who plots at "Please" or not.

So anyway, I would not be too worried about JC for a while.

oh wait..you've started your settler..maybe get that road up now

Hannibal is probably the most logical AI to focus EPs on now. General rule is to focus them on the fastest techer like Mansa, Pacal, Darius, Willem (see pattern). There are some non-FIN AIs that tend to tech well, but the 4 are the usual suspects. EP stuff is far from something I'm worried about for you right now, but certainly does not hurt to passively focus them on someone.

T031 - Meet Julius Caesar coming from the NE, pasture on cow complete, settler in 5, BW in 8, warrior-1 N1, worker to 2S1E
T032 - Warrior-1 1NE - revealed cow, warrior-2 1E,
T033 - Worker road 2S1E, warrior-2 fortify, warrior-1 1NE - revealed gems, EP's on Hannibal.
T034 - Warrior-1 1NW
T035 - Road complete, worker to gold (gonna road while I wait for settler in 1), warrior-1 1W
T036 - Settler complete.

3S1E still looks like the best spot, so obviously we want to settle there. What should I want to do in Kyoto now (another worker maybe and then barb defense/whip another settler)?

 

[lymond]

post save and screenshot(s) with each report

 

[diegobueno]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=478563

i find this ussefull, its an analisis section on the 51 leaders.
hannibal is an strong leader, strong traits, ok starting techs, good ub-uu. quite competent and balanced, make sure you dont fail in take a city, his troops can lvl up faster and you dont want to face longbows cg3.
julius cesar is the bigger threat you face imo, he is a warmongger, org means he spend less money on manintenance and more on troops so expect to face lots.
also he Can plot war at pleased

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

post save and screenshot(s) with each report

Spoiler screenshot :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=478563

i find this ussefull, its an analisis section on the 51 leaders.
hannibal is an strong leader, strong traits, ok starting techs, good ub-uu. quite competent and balanced, make sure you dont fail in take a city, his troops can lvl up faster and you dont want to face longbows cg3.
julius cesar is the bigger threat you face imo, he is a warmongger, org means he spend less money on manintenance and more on troops so expect to face lots.
also he Can plot war at pleased

 

[Fippy]

Meh..if we use the Alpha example here, teching BW it's what you would not do and go AH - pottery (?) - writing - Alpha cos you have enuf prod for settlers and workers in Kyoto without chops or whips and enuf commerce with gold (why the ? for pottery).

This time pigs are sadly not improvable before border pop for gold city, and no horsies are around, but often you would find those resis useful.

 

[Pangaea]

Don't really have much input, you're getting fantastic help from some of the best players here, but wanted to note that this looks like a great map. Of course you may not get it all without warfare, but double gold, gems, stone, marble, great food, wine, elephants. Hard to ask for more than that

Or, you could roleplay Civ4 Toku. Don't open borders with anybody, and tell them to get stuffed if they have the gall to contact you

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

Sorry for the delayed response guys, I've been busy with uni.

Meh..if we use the Alpha example here, teching BW it's what you would not do and go AH - pottery (?) - writing - Alpha cos you have enuf prod for settlers and workers in Kyoto without chops or whips and enuf commerce with gold (why the ? for pottery).

I can see that logic, but I'm almost at my happy cap, I prioritised being able to whip away unproductivity plus get out a few settlers faster. Plus thinking it through, if I don't have horses, the next best thing for barb defence would be axe's, and if this was deity they would be spawning in a couple of turns.

Re: teching, I'm thinking:
BW>Pottery (for the granary)>Writing... then the question is should I go Aesthetics (would that be a waste on Monarch?) or Alpha?

This time pigs are sadly not improvable before border pop for gold city, and no horsies are around, but often you would find those resis useful.

@Pedro78 and @Lain suggested 3S1E for the gold city, are you thinking perhaps another site so I can pick up the pigs too? Yeah no horsies but I have ivory, so I'm thinking elepults.

Don't really have much input, you're getting fantastic help from some of the best players here, but wanted to note that this looks like a great map. Of course you may not get it all without warfare, but double gold, gems, stone, marble, great food, wine, elephants. Hard to ask for more than that

Or, you could roleplay Civ4 Toku. Don't open borders with anybody, and tell them to get stuffed if they have the gall to contact you

Thanks for your interest anyway, but the more the merrier I say.



T036 - Settler complete, warrior-1 1W, settler 2S, worker road gold (cancelled), Kyoto to build warrior


I'm thinking after BW, my priorities would be to settle copper ASAP (if possible), axes (or archers), workers, settlers, after alpha prioritise getting elepults going and rush Lincoln.

Spoiler my thoughts on city locations: :

Anybody have any thoughts and suggestions as to what I should be doing?
What would you do from here and why?

 

[yyeah]

I would settle this gold site right now, work gold and choop worker... or depends wheres cooper
About worker micro instand of going on gold and make a 1T road there. You could make a road on tile whitch you want to settle.
That would save you 1T ( i meen you could settle city this turn) .
Normally instand of bulding settler in capitol i would 2 pop whip worker but ... yea. We need to settle copper asap.

Thats why i wouldnt go AH here, only reason why i go with toku AH is ... yea i have AH res in my capitol or/and i want to uncover horses.
But its a big gamble, sorry.
This 3 3 simply isnt worth the investments, you have allrdy 5 and 6 tile in your capitol, if one need here one can just bulid a mine.
Its even worse decision IMO beocuse of Toku's starting techs... maybe if i had a leader whos start with agc or hunting ... i would go AH here but not with Toku.
In this situation i wouldnt gamble on AH, only excuse to do it here is Monarch and gold mine sorry.
Like... imagine you are playing on ... even Immortal you go agc-ah and if you go after this for bw and theres no copper in your capitol bfc you are dead.
To play safe you would have to go archery after ah if theres no horses and such a big time without BW (slavery) its a huge waste.
Another thing is that you are going Alpha this tile and horses rly could wait until you get there.

But thats just my point of view, sry for my eng its not my mature lang. Glhf

 

[Fippy]

@Pedro78 and @Lain suggested 3S1E for the gold city, are you thinking perhaps another site so I can pick up the pigs too? Yeah no horsies but I have ivory, so I'm thinking elepults.

Nope, 3s1e is clearly best for shared food.

Pigs city is another good spot alone thou, 1w of them.
Eventually after floodplains + stone before Lincoln settles there.

Like... imagine you are playing on ... even Immortal you go agc-ah and if you go after this for bw and theres no copper in your capitol bfc you are dead.

Umm..no? Why would i be dead on Immortal with agg. warriors.
Maybe on deity you need something other than warris with Toku, but clearly not on Imm or lower.