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Help me win Immortal more consistently!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Zaddy, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Farm? :pat:
     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    And yes, definitely this. I would say the biggest key tech in the early game is BW, because it allows both whipping and chopping. Another key tech is pottery, for cottages and granaries. These allow you to set up your empire properly, other things are just a bonus.
     
  3. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    BW is certainly good, but i would have gone Agri - AH here.
    Cows are a much needed early power tile in this posi, and your worker would have enuf to do with pasture - roads towards stone - floodplains farm eventually for stone city.
    Oasis makes spending beakers on AH less painful as well.
    Mecca looks strong, but in reality floodplains and all those clams come in play later, cows could help very soon after corn has been farmed.
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ah..for some reason I thought he went Mining first. Yep, AG definitely first here, as My says AH probably best for super cows to power first settler. Worker has plenty to do then with an FP farm and roads. FP farm will be good for Stonesville early on.
     
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Zaddy Thoughts?
    Two major things, for a shadow game, you really should put a hold when big decisions such as next tech comes. Here there was some discussion about perhaps AH before mining to be had.
    Secondly, your warror moved in a very inefficient manner. I wanted warrior NE from the get go, I can understand the pull to make one move SE before settling first though, but after that, the warrior should have zoomed of NE, alternatively been put on a SE->SE->SE trajectory.
    When first thinking about early warrior or scout movements, you should have in mind capitals T5 culture, so that no warrior turns are wasted unfogging things you will unfog with culture soon anyway.

    I would most likely have gone for BW here, and with no good city2 spot yet I think it makes sense to just continue growing capital on warriors (or possibly some SH failgold).
    It might delay first settler, but the extra production from being at pop4 (or pop5) will speed up the second settler/worker (possibly whipped).
    Two workers after the first settler is one option, farming those floodplains takes ages and when chopping pyramids abit later they will be needed anyway.

    On the stone is certainly a tempting place for second city, but I think NW of stone has it's merits too. I think it would mean one less GPT in upkeep, and it requires one less road. But main point would be that all floodplains and the oasis would be within that citys reach. I think capital will be overloaded with conflicting objectives as it is.

    But really, we need to know whats NE of silk and a few tiles further up along the coast.
     
  6. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Okay, lots of good advise here, thanks all for offering their thoughts!

    On reflection, the criticism about my scouting pattern is totally right! I sorta just tune out during the starting portions of the game and (if it makes sense) build a worker and move my warrior around the cap, but really I could've been pushing out more, and moving southwards after seeing the coast was a pretty big misplay. Especially seeing Justin means I needed to see where his borders were because he's close.

    I can see the argument for Animal Husbandry here. My thought was to go Mining > BW while roading towards the stone and having a settler claim it, then AH after. I would probably settle in a pattern like this:

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-2-28_15-23-26.png


    The stone city and a city to the north both have farmable floodplains for food. Not exactly great but we're sort of short on good sites besides the cow city. The surrounding land isn't exactly blowing me away right now!

    @krikav yep, I probably should've stopped after Agri was finished, you're right. In the future I'll try to better identify good stopping points :)

    Cheers to everyone for the feedback, I'll wait for more feedback before I continue!
     
  7. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Well, you seem to be doing a lot better than those posting 150 turns, then ask for advice.

    “.....while defeated warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win”

    -Sun Tsu

    As for myself, I still have to play out a bunch of openings to see how they play out.
     
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  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    why is your warrior inside your borders?
     
  9. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    I had brought it down to the bottom of the coast (a mistake) and I'm now pushing upwards to scout the silk area. Is having it in my borders a mistake?
     
  10. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yes, well..I think you already grasped that that area did not need scouting at present..heck the border pop will reveal it anyway. Point is that taking a path through your borders like that is a) slow for scouting b) not spawnbusting. When your are outside scouting you are essentially kinda partially spawnbusting as well.

    Granted you should not have backtracked in the first place, but given where you were i would just head due E to scout or take a more diagonal approach NE. Probably look to stand on the forested grasshill 1E of stone for now until the settler arrives to keep things clear.

    Anyway, keep your units outside your borders.
     
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  11. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Okay, makes sense! Thanks for pointing that out.
     
  12. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Don't be shy, go with Jewism if you wanna go in style ! At least it gets you a civic to wonderspam.

    Start could use some tech skipping. AH, Fish, BW, Pottery is a whole lot. With a single cow, here (good tile), it's probable that AH should be trimmed.
    Go Fish, Bronze, possibly Sailing, instead.
    There are very many possible paths with this start. The religious beeline is a meme but Masonry is a real thing, possibly before BW. Edit : derp. if scouting reveals pasture lands, AH is good and Fishing is the one that should be skipped. Might be a rare case where Pottery could be researched before BW.

    Good map for shadows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  13. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I must admit that spiritual with a shot on an early religion IS something. I grew on a warrior, went fish/min/bw, next thing work boat and worker only at size 3 who chopped a 2. workboat and then settler at size 4. Masonry/poly/mono gave me Judaism. On the cost of delaying agri/pott/AH. I hope it is worth the detour. Very unusual start and not the most representative shadow game but i like it a lot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
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  14. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Also worker steal on a quite distant neighbor, luckily the worker survived on the way back “home“.
    Btw, I have not seen a single barb archer, but right techs are given. It's Immortal, right?

    With the fact of running my own religion no-one likes me at the moment but i can easily switch out to get OB.
    Spoiler :
    Especially Justinian is annoyed. I will probably gift him a city close to Medina that my culture from the Holy city + future Madrasa could flip again on my side. It smells cheat-game here.... :eek:
    How do I talk to someone and negotiate about cities before writing?


    With so much food in Mecca, the Madrasa with +2 priest slots will be very useful. Sorry, Arabia, that i qualified you as one of the worst Civs recently.. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  15. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    You could also make a case for Agri/AH, in order to start on the settler at size 2. But first of all, I don't see an overly attractive spot here and secondly, I was going into that game with the attempt to reach an early religion (what I did not try anymore since playing prince/monarch ....). In that case, commerce is important and production can wait - so I tried to get at least 2 workboats online before starting on the settler (settler at size 4 enables to work 6-8 extra :commerce: that's huge!)
    My second city was then placed here and got a huge culture boost and free border pop almost instantly....

    Spoiler :
    .... that's why I will be able to work the pigs once I have AH and did not settle on the stone (Even if I had missed the religion, which I didn't, I could have built a monument and got another worker in the meantime, so that's a good settle anyway.).
    Not even sure if going for Mids is the right gameplay here. Religion + cheap temples is +2 happiness, and being already at Priesthood, Monarchy is close. HG could be an option because I anticipate health problems here.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  16. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Okay, got a chance to play forward a bit more before coming to what seems to be another decision point.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-1_0-0-29.png

    It looks like I'm really going to regret not going AH early... We have pigs a fair distance away. We also meet WvO on this turn, coming from the north.

    I suppose my question is... should I tech AH or BW? If I don't tech AH I can still settle the stone and farm the floodplains + build roads, so I'm leaning towards that, but I'd love to hear your feedback!
     

    Attached Files:

  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Zaddy
    Spoiler :

    Guess this shows the importance of early scouting well. If you would have known of them pigs after finishing agriculture the choice would have been easy. :)

    Not sure now, which one is better right now in the current situation, but they both are important.
    BW could speed up the second settler if you go for that, but AH could make the second city much faster to get up and running.
    If going AH, make sure that a worker joins the settler to improve pigs right away!

    Getting that pig is much more important than getting the stone so plans for where the second city should be located need to be changed.
     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    As mentioned some days ago, i would have gone Agri - AH with or without pigs :)
    Cows are your best tile for settlers & workers, seeing if horsies are around is always useful, and overall finding animal tiles is very common.

    BW makes more sense for high food starts like double corn, but let's not be blinded by clams or floodplains, those are not providing much food early.
    Or covered in forests start, here you will want your ~6 mostly for Pyras, not early chopping.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Fippy
    Yes, but the current question at hand is what to do after mining.
    Does the timings still line up in such a way that you prefer AH over BW?
     
  20. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'd say you almost have to go BW at this point and likely eschew AH for now. Sal is just too far behind tech wise, and teching both would delay Masonry a lot.
     

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