High school vs free speech

Drewcifer

Agent of Karma
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From the Minneapolis Star Tribune:

2 Winona High students at center of free-speech issue
James Walsh, Star Tribune
April 21, 2005


Two Winona High School students have found themselves in hot water with school officials.

Why? Because after Carrie Rethlefsen attended a performance of the play "The Vagina Monologues" last month, she and Emily Nixon wore buttons to school that read: "I [heart] My Vagina."

School leaders said that the pin is inappropriate and that the discomfort it causes trumps the girls' right to free speech. The girls disagree. And despite repeated threats of suspension and expulsion, Rethlefsen has continued to wear her button.

The girls have won support from other students and community members.

More than 100 students have ordered T-shirts bearing "I [heart] My Vagina" for girls and "I Support Your Vagina" for boys.

"We can't really find out what is inappropriate about it," Rethlefsen, 18, said of the button she wears to raise awareness about women's issues. "I don't think banning things like that is appropriate."

Their case could become another test of whether high school students have the right to express their views in school. Charles Samuelson, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, has offered to help the girls.

"It's political speech," he said.

Samuelson acknowledged that school officials can limit speech considered detrimental or dangerous. But he said this case is similar to Tinker v. Des Moines, a 1969 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in a case where students were forbidden to wear black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The court ruled that First Amendment rights are available to teachers and students and that administrators' fear about how others might react is not enough to squelch those rights.

"Free speech is a messy thing," Samuelson said. "People need to understand that opinions that they are not comfortable with, or even opinions they disagree with, need to be allowed."

Good students
To say the girls have never been in trouble at school before is an understatement. They are top students. Rethlefsen was in Minneapolis on Tuesday, presenting her science project on organic farming at General Mills. She has been invited to a prestigious international science and engineering fair for the fourth year in a row.

Nixon, 17, joked that when she was called into the assistant principal's office about the button issue, he told her: "I don't think we've ever met."

But they're in trouble now. And it could get worse.

Rethlefsen said school officials first told her the button was inappropriate in mid-March when a school secretary spotted it. That started a string of visits -- and debates -- with teachers, counselors, an assistant principal and the principal. A teacher barred Rethlefsen from her classroom as long as she wore her button.

"The principal said that by wearing the pin, I was giving people wrong ideas," Rethlefsen said. "That I was giving an open invitation [to guys]."

The girls said they tried to explain that the buttons are meant to spark discussion about violence against women, about women's rights. But Principal Nancy Wondrasch said others find the buttons offensive.

"We support free speech," she said. "But when it does infringe on other people's rights and our school policies, then we need to take a look at that."

Wondrasch said she thought they had worked out a compromise with the girls, allowing them to set up a table in the school to discuss women's issues. But Rethlefsen said school officials are insisting that they review and approve any information the girls want to present.

So they're turning to the T-shirts, paid for with money collected from friends and supporters. "And we're going to wear them sometime next week," Rethlefsen said.

Nixon said more than 100 students are expected to wear the shirts. She added that officials have threatened real consequences if that happens.

"They told us that if a single person showed up wearing them, we're going to get expelled," she said. "People are going to wear them anyway."

Wondrasch wouldn't comment on what sort of discipline the students might face. But the prospect of expulsion worries Rethlefsen's mother, Ann.

"She's a very independent young lady," Ann Rethlefsen said, adding that she understands the school's point. "We just want to make sure she graduates."

Her daughter has gained "a lot of support around town," she said. She's even received encouraging e-mails from noted feminist author Susan Faludi.

Nixon is nervous about what could happen next. But the girls say they are taking a stand.

"We're not trying to offend anyone," Nixon said. "But I want people to think for themselves and come up with their own conclusions."
 
"We can't really find out what is inappropriate about it," Rethlefsen, 18, said of the button she wears to raise awareness about women's issues.

Wait...what issues? That women have differing anatomies from men? That's been established long before that stupid play came out.

"It's political speech," he said.

No, it isn't. It's nonsense.
 
If some punk who decided to cause some trouble went to school one day with a T-shirt that said "I love my penis!", would the same thing happen to him? If not, why?

(BTW, I think the whole thing is ********. Both the school for making a big deal about a button and the girl for making such a big deal about her right to use her clothing to proclaim how much she loves her sexual organ)
 
I'm having difficulty understanding the existence of objections to two girls wearing pins that read 'I (heart) my vagina'. Even for Puritanical America, this is absurd beyond belief. The people objecting to these pins have done more service to the cause they represent in that town than the Monologues themselves have.

Sometimes the 'Christian' Right makes me cringe. Mainly it's when their mouth is open and sound is coming out of it.
 
Hundegesicht said:
If some punk who decided to cause some trouble went to school one day with a T-shirt that said "I love my penis!", would the same thing happen to him? If not, why?
I think it would depend on whether he was doing it for a reason that was connected to something else going on in the broader society or if he was just doing it to get a rise out of people.
 
I really don't care what's going on in society, public schools are not forums for political discussion, especially about sexuality. As if we don't have enough teenage whores running around as it is.

When you're in school, shut up and learn. Play on your soapboxes after school.
 
Drewcifer said:
I think it would depend on whether he was doing it for a reason that was connected to something else going on in the broader society or if he was just doing it to get a rise out of people.

The question is, isn't the girl doing this to get a rise out of people? Whenever we think of a guy bragging about his dick or loving it, we just think he's being a sexist pervert. But for women, it's fighting gender oppression or something similar. Has this girl ever been abused or oppressed? Is sexual abuse or oppression a problem in Minneapolis?

Okay, to give a background. This guy in question goes to a Young Christian Men's Revival thingy... there, he learns of the terrible abuse some men do by masturbating and/or contracting STDs by sleeping around. He is convicted to do God's will by using his penis wisely, and before he leaves he picks up one of the T-shirts this camp is selling with "I love my penis!" written across it. (And maybe "so does God!" written on the back or something)

When he shows up for school the next day, will he be able to mount months of protests, rallies, debates, etc.? Or will he just be given a warning to change before he gets kicked out of school?

Actually, I think this girl should be allowed to wear the button, I'm a firm believer is free speech. It just irks me how it's acceptable, even noble for women to declare fondness for their genitals in public, but just crude for men.
 
rmsharpe said:
I really don't care what's going on in society, public schools are not forums for political discussion, especially about sexuality. As if we don't have enough teenage whores running around as it is.

When you're in school, shut up and learn. Play on your soapboxes after school.
But schools are run by the government. The Bill of Rights regulates how the government must act regarding the rights of it's citizens.
 
I reckon the girls seriously believe they are suporting womens rights by wearing the badge. But I also reckon standing up for womens rights is the last thing on a teenage boy's mind when he wears a shirt that reads "I Support Your Vagina".

Personally I couldn't care less what kids wear to school in my own contry, let alone foreign ones.
 
Knowze Gungk said:
But I also reckon standing up for womens rights is the last thing on a teenage boy's mind when he wears a shirt that reads "I Support Your Vagina".

This was the first thought that came to my mind, too. However, I'm sure there are at least a few boys that really are participating in this for the same reasons as the girls.

rmsharpe said:
I really don't care what's going on in society, public schools are not forums for political discussion, especially about sexuality. As if we don't have enough teenage whores running around as it is.

When you're in school, shut up and learn. Play on your soapboxes after school.

Schools are where young people are supposed to learn critical thinking skills and how to participate in society, right? While a bit of math, history, science, and language is obviously very important, so is learning about the exercise of constitutional rights, political action, and social mores. Call this a lab exercise for the latter - I think the students are actually learning far more about being good citizens by observing/participating in this controversy than from weeks of reading the US Citizenship 101 textbook, although I doubt that such was the intent of the school administrators.
 
IglooDude said:
Schools are where young people are supposed to learn critical thinking skills and how to participate in society, right?

American schools teach "critical thinking"? Here in Germany I was taught that the teacher is always right..
You wouldn't believe how much trouble I got myself into for questioning the belief of my histroy teacher that the white man is to blame for all evils in the world and that the negros in Africa are more civilized than we ever were...

Goddamn, I'm happy I'm out of school...
 
I hardly see how wearing a "I love my vagina" button in school is "free speech".

I guess I'll be, for once, more conservative than conservatives, and say that I consider it inappropriate and don't see what all the fuss is about.
 
Knowze Gungk said:
I reckon the girls seriously believe they are suporting womens rights by wearing the badge. But I also reckon standing up for womens rights is the last thing on a teenage boy's mind when he wears a shirt that reads "I Support Your Vagina".

Personally I couldn't care less what kids wear to school in my own contry, let alone foreign ones.
I think they all just want the attention, girls especially.
 
Mario Feldberg said:
American schools teach "critical thinking"? Here in Germany I was taught that the teacher is always right..
You wouldn't believe how much trouble I got myself into for questioning the belief of my histroy teacher that the white man is to blame for all evils in the world and that the negros in Africa are more civilized than we ever were...

Well, some American schools actually teach it, some try and fail, and some don't bother trying and go to the same "the teacher is always right" mentality. In my experience, it varies by teacher rather than by school.

Mario Feldberg said:
Goddamn, I'm happy I'm out of school...

Ditto here! :thumbsup:
 
IglooDude said:
Well, some American schools actually teach it, some try and fail, and some don't bother trying and go to the same "the teacher is always right" mentality. In my experience, it varies by teacher rather than by school.
Yeah...

On the other hand, it's Mario Feldberg here, so I would take his description of what happened with a handful of salt.
Wouldn't be surprised if "white man is to blame for all evil in the world" was simply the teached talking about the damages of colonisation and "negros in Africa are more civilized we ever were" (the use of "negros" is quite revealing, I think) was simply "they were humans too" :rolleyes:
 
I think the idea is that if people (especially girls) were more comfortable with the word "vagina", they would find it easier to talk about sexual issues and problems. The alternative is maintaining it as an absolute taboo, with the result that girls talk about "down there" or other such silly euphemisms, and lack awareness of their own bodies (or worse, think they are dirty or sinful). Personally I would find it distasteful to see somebody wearing such a T-shirt, and I hope no girl would centre her identity on her genitals. However, I can't tell somebody not to wear a shirt on the grounds that I find it distasteful, not unless it encourages violence or harms someone (those "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" shirts, or the "She was asking for it" ones).

Boys don't generally need to wear I Love My Penis shirts, because the male organ has been glorified, not stigmatised. Males are already quite proud of their John Thomases, and from my experience certainly have no problem talking about them.
 
I'm ambivalent. On public property, the government should not abridge free speech or any other rights, but this is in a school, where many courts have ruled that some of those rights don't apply (e.g. you don't need a warrant to search, only reasonable suspicion) Although, as I think the article pointed out, SCOTUS did rule in favor of free speech in Tinker v. Des Moines. Since these are mostly kids, there are some restrictions, as they do not get to enjoy the full privileges that come with adulthood.
 
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