Hinin's Tweaks for VP

Hinin

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Sorry to ask again about how to implement only some of the changes and especially about civs tweaks.
If I play with VP + 3/4UC + PDan's tweaks + Hinin's tweaks... How to know which one will supersede the others? Should I delete some redundant changes from PDan's to try Hinin's?
About civ tweaks, there are only two civs where there are problems : Songhai and China.
Songhai is mostly about details (war canoe promotions etc), but there shouldn't be much concern to have. For China, you have to choose between pineappledan's version and mine. You simply have to delete the file (or move it elsewhere) marked China in each of our tweak files.

I decided to not really touch the skirmisher line in my warfare rework, so you there shouldn't be any problem on that front.
 
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Dimmy

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Thanks for the prompt answer! Made my selection.
A couple of notes: in you 1st post and v7 update post there's no mention and / or no details about:
► TechCostTweaks.sql
► PolicyNameChanges.sql
► Gameplay reworks for England, Incas, Shoshones? EDIT: also see a Japan folder and Celts?
► A massive rework for warfare, especially during the early game (including 4 new units and 2 new buildings)
Can't decide to keep these... I guess I'll just try and see ^^
 

Hinin

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TechCostTweaks.sql
The first post of the thread hasn't been updated yet.
TechCostTweaks increases tech costs starting the Medieval Era : it is directly taken from Vern's thread and is meant as a test for me and those who want to keep it
PolicyNameChanges.sql
It's still vestigial, so it does almost nothing for now.
also see a Japan folder and Celts?
These are empty for now : these are just placeholders for two major reworks that will come one day
A massive rework for warfare, especially during the early game (including 4 new units and 2 new buildings)
Can't decide to keep these... I guess I'll just try and see ^^
It is my biggest work these last weeks. I hope you'll enjoy it. I'm quite happy with the result, but of course it needs fine tuning.
 

Hinin

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The first post has been updated. I don't have enough time to explain all the changes anymore, but I hope you'll enjoy them. If you have questions on individual elements, don't hesitate to ask. :)
 

black213

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A lot to unravel with this update! At first glance I feel like I agree with pretty much everything, however it'll obviously need vigorous testing
 

Urzamax

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It appears that the new China's special forge is available at Iron Working rather than Bronze Working as the description states, and spawns a Halberdier instead of a Spearman as a consequence.
 

Hinin

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It appears that the new China's special forge is available at Iron Working rather than Bronze Working as the description states, and spawns a Halberdier instead of a Spearman as a consequence.
Yes, that's a consequence of the WarfareRework I forgot to document. Basically, since there is no more unit unlocked at Bronze Working, and Statue of Zeus now grants a free Forge, I thought it was a bad idea to keep the Lianchang at Bronze Working (so if you remove the WarfareRework, the Lianchang will work as announced).

Thus I moved it back to Iron Working, and exchanged the Spearman for a Halberdier. I agree this is not an ideal solution. Don't hesitate to propose ideas on that front. The Building needs a buff after losing such an important part of its original identity, that's for sure.
+ I'll surely buff the Palissade a little bit. It is far too weak right now, despite its very low cost.
 

Urzamax

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Yes, that's a consequence of the WarfareRework I forgot to document. Basically, since there is no more unit unlocked at Bronze Working, and Statue of Zeus now grants a free Forge, I thought it was a bad idea to keep the Lianchang at Bronze Working (so if you remove the WarfareRework, the Lianchang will work as announced).

Thus I moved it back to Iron Working, and exchanged the Spearman for a Halberdier. I agree this is not an ideal solution. Don't hesitate to propose ideas on that front. The Building needs a buff after losing such an important part of its original identity, that's for sure.
+ I'll surely buff the Palissade a little bit. It is far too weak right now, despite its very low cost.
Ja, I figured it was something like that. Makes sense to me! Just wanted to highlight the discrepancy. I mean, I think that getting a Halberdier is kind of a stealth buff over the Spearman, but yeah, it could use some kind of small additional effect to make up for the access hit. Maybe an extra +1 Science or Culture? Though with that said, why replace base-game China instead of just splitting it off into Greater Min?

Agreed about the Palisade (also, in English there's only one 'S'). I can't even tell if the AI's building it or not, because it doesn't seem to do much for them defensively. Although in fairness that might be because I'm running bal's Simplified Warfare, which nerfs City Defense to make up for the reduced Unit Supply; I don't know if that stacks with your tweaks or not, lemme try it with just one set of City Defense reductions and see if that feels better.
 
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Hinin

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Although in fairness that might be because I'm running bal's Simplified Warfare, which nerfs City Defense to make up for the reduced Unit Supply; I don't know if that stacks with your tweaks or not, lemme try it with just one set of City Defense reductions and see if that feels better.
Yes, I think they stack. You can always remove mine, and make sure that balparmak's mod load after mine, and all should be good.
Though with that said, why replace base-game China instead of just splitting it off into Greater Min?
Because my goal isn't to add more civs, but to modify existing ones. The informal nature of the tweaks also give me much more freedom in what I can use, whereas for official new civs, using assets from other mods would be quite rude.
In the end, I know I'm walking on a tight rope, but as I said in the thread, I make sure to credit all authors with a link to the original mod for each asset used, and I'm perfectly open to removing elements if the authors doesn't want them to be used.
I mean, I think that getting a Halberdier is kind of a stealth buff over the Spearman, but yeah, it could use some kind of small additional effect to make up for the access hit.
One other thing to take into accound with the pre WarfareRework version is that it synergized very well with God of Knowledge (very easy access to an early specialist) and Tutelary Gods (early Engineer), which are two underused pantheons for China usually. I like the concept, and so the Lianchang will be back at Bronze Working in the next version, only more expansive but still giving the free Halberdier (the Chinese were in advance on that front anyway). It's powerful, sure, but it's only one unit per city, the building itself will be quite costly for the ancient era, and it's not possible to sell the building, since it doesn't have a maintenance cost.
 

Hinin

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@Dimmy, I saw you liked the changes. If you want to help with the development of the Warfare Rework, don't hesitate to leave a review with your honest feedback about the different elements of the module.
 

black213

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I do feel like France's UA could be toned down to +1 production/tourism/GG instead of +2. It's what I did for my local version and honestly it still feels good.
Another thing on my mind was that early UUs have smaller windows of opportunity to build with the added units.
 

Urzamax

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I do feel like France's UA could be toned down to +1 production/tourism/GG instead of +2. It's what I did for my local version and honestly it still feels good.
Another thing on my mind was that early UUs have smaller windows of opportunity to build with the added units.
Agreed on France's UA (partly because I always play with More Wonders).

That's true about the Early UUs, ja, though I don't think it's any more restrictive than, say, Slinger/Archer UUs. I think it adds a certain level of balance between early and later UUs, to be honest; Late Renaissance/Industrial UUs tend to go obsolete a fair bit quicker than early ones and also to have fewer opportunities for use after Defensive Pacts and whatnot are firmly established. This evens the playing field a little bit.

Also Hinin, are you planning to change any of your own nations' uniques with the unit changes, especially with the Recon expansion (eg. Corsica's Commando and the Ainu's Explorer)?
 

Urzamax

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Thoughts about the Chinese Forge: Yeah, an extra :c5culture: (and/or :c5faith:) feels right to compensate for the later unlock. After all, the first forges in China were used extensively for ornamentation and ritual purposes, as the UB's description itself elaborates upon. Probably Faith since the Paper Maker already gives Culture, honestly.

Oh, or on the other hand, the Halberdier it gives could be either Supply or Maintenance-Free? That might be too powerful though.
 
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gwennog

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Also Hinin, are you planning to change any of your own nations' uniques with the unit changes, especially with the Recon expansion (eg. Corsica's Commando and the Ainu's Explorer)?
Yes, the Macchieri should be a Light Company Unit Class now.
 

Hinin

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I do feel like France's UA could be toned down to +1 production/tourism/GG instead of +2. It's what I did for my local version and honestly it still feels good.
Another thing on my mind was that early UUs have smaller windows of opportunity to build with the added units.
I agree about France. As always, I prefer to start strong and then nerf than the other way around.
Also Hinin, are you planning to change any of your own nations' uniques with the unit changes, especially with the Recon expansion (eg. Corsica's Commando and the Ainu's Explorer)?
Changes are already made in the v.8 I'm working on.
Thoughts about the Chinese Forge: Yeah, an extra :c5culture: (and/or :c5faith:) feels right to compensate for the later unlock. After all, the first forges in China were used extensively for ornamentation and ritual purposes, as the UB's description itself elaborates upon. Probably Faith since the Paper Maker already gives Culture, honestly.

Oh, or on the other hand, the Halberdier it gives could be either Supply or Maintenance-Free? That might be too powerful though.
I'll keep the Forge at Bronze Working, but give it a free Halberdier instead of a free Spearman. A straight buff, but I do think having a fearsome China in the early game makes sense (now if only the AI was more agressive...).
 

gwennog

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I just tested v7 with England, I didn't do an in-depth analysis but I really like the Warfare Rework, I find that it brings diversity to game balances, some armies end up with advanced cavalry and archery while others will have strong line units. The progression is more fluid and the defense of the cities more complex (which was really necessary, it is almost impossible to lose a city as Emperor difficulty since a few versions when I often play dead last at the army level.
Special mention for the rework of Great Britain, really interesting to play while like France, it was a civilization that I did not play.
 

Urzamax

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Ja, I likewise quite like the new England, at least relative to its vanilla incarnation. It really incentivizes going after Strategics, rather than just making ships for days.
 

nekokon

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Hello, I want to ask is there any way to only use 1 component of this mod: no random dmg (I have zero experience with civ 5 mod) ?
 

feb

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Played a game as France to mid renaissance. 10 players, all of them these tweaked civs - France, Greece, England, Iran, Ottomans, Shoshone, Rome, Byzantium, China, Carthage. King difficulty, epic speed, large communitu map, 20 city states.

France is good. Its has a good push throughout the game. The UA gives some guaranteed production from classical, a (passively acquired) GG to secure some particularly vulnerable fronts. Tourism to production is a roundabout way to scale +2 :c5production: from wonders to later eras (not that I dislike it). +3 :c5food: from great works and GPTIs means goddess of beauty and tradition is a goto pick for France even in hilly starts, with 6 :c5food: to work 2-3 specialists. Really, it cannot be understated how much better this makes manufactories placed on a barren hill for those opting to share the tile between the capital and a secondary city. But the large map I got had other plans, and I founded 8 cities and I had to take progress to pump those settlers out from secondary cities. I picked ancestor worship for some nice wide faith and culture, was unhappy for a while because I had only 2 luxes and until my last cities and the recent trade evaluations made buying tiles to develop them much harder.

Sainte Chapelle is very flexible. I founded a religion with synagogues and orders and those extra yields were quite nice. It does not boost faith bought normal buildings (like amphitheatres, universities through reformation beliefs. This is also stated clearly in the ingame help, so it is probably intentional). A holy site (through the prophet) gives +4 :c5faith: + extra yields for those who want a direct grand temple replacement. The best strategy is probably to spend faith reforming and using this prophet for an enhancement, both of which I did first of all the civs. It comes with an artifact which unlocks a lot of different GP theming with salons before unlocking Archaeology. +10HP on cavalry is nice. I am yet to see if the upgrade discount works when they upgrade to landships. The 10% :c5faith: to :c5culture: conversion nets me about 22 :c5culture: in renaissance

Bombarde Mortier can be described with just two words. Boom Boom. Its a renaissance era siege in medieval era. 29CS means it can shoot units just fine even with siege inaccuracy, which is important to get some use out of quick study and get range. With orders and a war with Carthage, I was able to get range, volley on a couple of them and just range on a couple of them. I am not sure if having a cannon's worth of firepower to break castled cities made sieges fast or if it was the general warfare tweaks or just base VP tweaks but castled cities went down in about 10 turns with just a single bombarde mortier.

I am somewhat mixed about Mousquetaires. They have been moved from commando replacements to light company replacements and now unlock in gunpowder instead of acoustics. With bombarde mortier unlocking in machinery, I was hoping to go astronomy and build Chichen Itza and then to acoustics but I ended up going gunpowder for the unlock for my war against Carthage. Mousquetaires are what mounted melee should be like. I picked trailblazer 2 on all of them, allowing them to usually get 4 movement, ignore zoc, use terrain defence and fortify. Being able to move after attacking means I can stack some of that extra 10% CS for every hit from the UA. Very good synergy, but at 23CS, they trade blows against fortified pikes, longswords and its a bit of a losing matchup against fortified tercios, even with their 25% attack bonus. I still attack with them anyway because they can heal quite fast thanks to benevolence and survivalism means they do not have to go back to friendly territory to get decent heals.

Spoiler I NEED MORE POWER :

1663426291054.png

But they look like they will not be able to keep up from industrial. Fusiliers get +15%CS against ranged units, they can pick cover 2, giving them a good 65%CS against ranged units and over 100% against the skirmisher line thanks to formation. Meanwhile, mousquetaires are good at defending once they get survivalism 2 in renaissance, but the raw CS disparity gets much higher in industrial with fusiliers and commandos, not to mention commandos unlock at dynamite, much later than Fusiliers. With increased tech costs on medieval era and later, and France needing to focus on getting the Louvre which is on a different tech path, mousquetaires will be bench warmers for much of industrial era.
Mousquetaires level up very quickly thanks to being a recon unit, which means they get access to nice promos like survivalism 3 but have little else to do after that. Medic is redundant with benevolence, you do not need more than a single spotter, that eliminates scouting (on all units except a couple). To keep them relevant in industrial it would be nice if they can get cover like fusiliers to tank, and/or get shock and overrun which could make excellent use of trailblazer 2 and the tweaked benevolence.

About general gameplay changes, the new horseman truly feels like the end of the world in an era where supply and maintenance is at a premium. Interestingly, with the recent removal of cover on the sword line, it might be a better idea to go for the spear line because with formation 1 they can protect themselves against skirmishers and counter horsemen. Longswords are definitely better with drill 1 and cover 1.

Not sure about the changes to city defence. Castled? cities with around 700HP still took about 10 turns to take with a single bombarde mortier. Early palisade unlock means base VP Japan gets a minor buff which they badly need.

Well is now better than water mills. It trades off 1 :c5production: for 1 :c5food: and then a scaler but the cost for the era is too high on water mills and it unlocks later. I settled a couple of cities next to lakes and oasis and not next to a river just for this reason and to get baths later on.

Now, about other civs, I must admit I was wrong about Byzantium being weak (it is probably weak in human hands though). I am still exploring their lands to see if Aplektons are indeed not terrible as I think but Byzantium, Rome and Greece are neck to neck in culture and science and a couple techs ahead of me. Byzantium spread their religion to half the continent and she has 3 votes in the congress now. Ottomans snagged Colossus and are as good as Rome in terms of science although they probably are struggling a little because of how specific their printing press is. I have no idea how Greece is so good but good for him. All of them opted for Industry and are probably going to kill me in world congress projects. Speaking of world congress projects, Rome has been swimming in production. With 20% in secondary cities, copper monopoly, progress, and golden ages thanks to his UA, he is pushing 45%-65% more production than us all. He built Chichen Itza, Summer palace, Sistine chapel and is competing with me for Porcelain tower.

Spoiler Rome OP as expected (I don't mind) :

1663426028302.png



Spoiler other civs are not too far from rome :

1663426100698.png


1663426123426.png



Shoshone and England are guarded with England being much weaker than the above civs and me in culture. Good for me, I met England through Atlantic ocean. I can only contemplate how OP redcoats are when they attack someone over Pacific ocean. Still, I have refrained from settling an Island city right between us with 2 unique luxes for me, just because its renaissance era. Iran isn't doing too bad now but I expect them to fall behind as they have taken imperialism. China is the only civ that seems to not fare too well with a terrible economy and 2 techs and policies behind me. With how close everyone is, except for England and China, I think the mod is reasonably balanced but I am not sure how balanced this is with other civs from base VP.

Please consider moving the changes to GDRs and XCOM squads to a separate file to make it easy to add them back. They are so coooooooooool.
 
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