Historical regional cuisines that were vegetarian

[LightSpectra]

In history, what large regions had an essentially vegetarian diet due to the unavailability, cost or otherwise inedibility of meat and fish? I'm not talking about a minority of people; I mean, that the traditional cuisine of that region was overwhelmingly vegetarian. I know that certain cultural minorities had vegetarian communities in various places in history, and also that very high-ranking officials might get meat just as a delicacy, but I'm talking about a region (encompassing most of the social groups) as a whole.

I've heard that ancient Israel's cuisine, if you didn't live in the hills where livestock was grown, was essentially vegetarian (aside from eating lamb on Passover). Most of their meals consisted of barley bread, "wine" and fruit.

 

[innonimatu]

I don«'t know, but ancient Israel seems unlikely, even in its urban centres. I would look instead at the largest of ancient cities for examples. Meat would be expensive to get there in large quantities before the railroad, at the least. Was there any ancient place with large cities far from the coast or major rivers? China or Mesoamerica, perhaps?

 

[Masada]

If vegetarianism allows for fish, fowl and eggs: most of the sedentary parts of the Malay Archipelago would have been essentially vegetarian, at least, among the lower classes and the lower rungs of the nobility. The basic diet was wet/dry rice, fruit and vegetables, some fish, fowl and eggs. Water buffalo are to valuable to kill - a single birth every two years - and cattle were unsuitable for the climate, along with sheep, pigs were common before the advent of Islam (and in most places afterwards) but could only be raised in areas which weren't built-up, while goats never seem to have caught on. In terms of fowl, the local breeds tend to be small but good egg-layers which mitigates against consumption of the meat. While ducks tended to be again valuable for the eggs moreso than the eating. That about covers it. Fish was basically everywhere, most of the trade in volume terms that we know about was either in rice or dried fish from what we know and in the case of dried fish - unlike rice - it was often transported deep into the hills.

 

[aronnax]

Meat was an expensive thing back in China. Generally, people only ate meat during Chinese New Year and other special occasions. A lot of people survived mainly on rice, vegetables and fish on a daily basis.
To me at least, there are alot of Chinese vegetable dishes, different types, different sauces, different cooking methods.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

I dont know any traditional Bosnian meal without meat.

 

[GoodGame]

There were various theocratic cultures where vegetarianism was strict religious observance, regardless of whether it was for animal respect. E.g. Indian(Mauryan) Ruler Ashoka (Civ4 leader!) and Manichaeism.

I think the "Mediterranean diet" is constant in history, and fairly vegetarian if you allow fish and dairy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet

 

[Pangur Bán]

Human beings are protein loving creatures with a strong taste for flesh, and no civilization goes without meat unless it has to. The Incas are probably one of the civilizations with least meat because of poor access to domesticated animal flesh and fish.
However, in civilizations (usually autocratic ones) with large peasant populations and sharp divisions between the peasants and the ruling class, meat is often very restricted for the former. The peasants become unhealthy, skinny, feminized and easier to control, and the lords healthy, high-in-muscle, masculine and more able to exercise control (Imperial China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, late medieval Europe, and so on).

 

[aronnax]

Human beings are protein loving creatures with a strong taste for flesh, and no civilization goes without meat unless it has to. The Incas are probably one of the civilizations with least meat because of poor access to domesticated animal flesh and fish.
However, in civilizations (usually autocratic ones) with large peasant populations and sharp divisions between the peasants and the ruling class, meat is often very restricted for the former. The peasants become unhealthy, skinny, feminized and easier to control, and the lords healthy, high-in-muscle, masculine and more able to exercise control (Imperial China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, late medieval Europe, and so on).

While cattle was expensive and depending on the era and place, rare, Fish was very common and plentiful and serve as a good protein supplement for these peasants you spoke of.

 

[Pangur Bán]

While cattle was expensive and depending on the era and place, rare, Fish was very common and plentiful and serve as a good protein supplement for these peasants you spoke of.

The right to use nets in rivers and carry boats into the sea was tightly controlled in most of these regions. After nobles, hired soldiers, bureaucrats, monks, city-dwellers/ burghesses, artisans, there wasn't much fish for the manorialised peasant/slave.

 

[Traitorfish]

Human beings are protein loving creatures with a strong taste for flesh, and no civilization goes without meat unless it has to. The Incas are probably one of the civilizations with least meat because of poor access to domesticated animal flesh and fish.
However, in civilizations (usually autocratic ones) with large peasant populations and sharp divisions between the peasants and the ruling class, meat is often very restricted for the former. The peasants become unhealthy, skinny, feminized and easier to control, and the lords healthy, high-in-muscle, masculine and more able to exercise control (Imperial China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, late medieval Europe, and so on).

 

[ParkCungHee]

If vegetarianism allows for fish, fowl and eggs: most of the sedentary parts of the Malay Archipelago would have been essentially vegetarian, at least, among the lower classes and the lower rungs of the nobility. The basic diet was wet/dry rice, fruit and vegetables, some fish, fowl and eggs. Water buffalo are to valuable to kill - a single birth every two years - and cattle were unsuitable for the climate, along with sheep, pigs were common before the advent of Islam (and in most places afterwards) but could only be raised in areas which weren't built-up, while goats never seem to have caught on. In terms of fowl, the local breeds tend to be small but good egg-layers which mitigates against consumption of the meat. While ducks tended to be again valuable for the eggs moreso than the eating. That about covers it. Fish was basically everywhere, most of the trade in volume terms that we know about was either in rice or dried fish from what we know and in the case of dried fish - unlike rice - it was often transported deep into the hills.

All of this pretty much applies to Okinawa as well.

 

[civ_king]

There are chunks of India that are almost completely vegetarian

 

[LightSpectra]

I dont know any traditional Bosnian meal without meat.

Uh, thanks, but I was actually asking for the... opposite of that.

Meat was an expensive thing back in China. Generally, people only ate meat during Chinese New Year and other special occasions. A lot of people survived mainly on rice, vegetables and fish on a daily basis.
To me at least, there are alot of Chinese vegetable dishes, different types, different sauces, different cooking methods.

China's a big place, could you be more specific as to which parts you're talking about?

 

[bombshoo]

China's a big place, could you be more specific as to which parts you're talking about?

North-Central China is often considered the historical hotbed of vegetarianism in China. Though it being born there is somewhat based on myth and bad history (partially based on the idea that tofu was invented there, which is both a bad assumption and debatable to begin with). Vegetarianism was supposedly particularly prevalent in the Tang dynasty though.

It's connections with Buddhism are not as important as one would expect either. I've seen the fact that vegetarianism was prevalent inland as an argument for the spread of Buddhism overland, but I don't know enough on the religion to make a good argument one way or the other. On it's importance though, very early Buddhism didn't forbid meat, and eating meat when it is given as a gift or is the only viable option is still allowed in most sects, so the two are not tied that heavily, especially from a historical standpoint.

 

[cybrxkhan]

On it's importance though, very early Buddhism didn't forbid meat, and eating meat when it is given as a gift or is the only viable option is still allowed in most sects, so the two are not tied that heavily, especially from a historical standpoint.

Actually many sects of Buddhism still technically don't forbid eating meat, from what I know - even clergy, although, again, this does depend from sect to sect and from culture to culture.

Anyhow, if fish and seafood don't count as meat, then would Japan count?

 

[LightSpectra]

The default definition of vegetarianism is lacto-ovo, which means dairy and eggs are allowed but not fish. Including fish is pescetarianism*.

*Why does Firefox want to auto-correct that to "proletariat"?

 

[bombshoo]

Actually many sects of Buddhism still technically don't forbid eating meat, from what I know - even clergy, although, again, this does depend from sect to sect and from culture to culture.

Yeah, actually it gets pretty interesting. They consider over-adherence to vegetarianism an "attachment", thus meaning while it should be practiced, going out of your way to do it is against the message of the overall religion. A big contrasts with Jainism, where starving yourself to death is even considered good to prevent harm in certain circumstances.

Anyhow, if fish and seafood don't count as meat, then would Japan count?

I personally never bought the whole fish don't count as meat thing. I suppose there might be some historical reasons for the differentiations, but none that ever really made a great deal of sense to me.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Yeah, actually it gets pretty interesting. They consider over-adherence to vegetarianism an "attachment", thus meaning while it should be practiced, going out of your way to do it is against the message of the overall religion. A big contrasts with Jainism, where starving yourself to death is even considered good to prevent harm in certain circumstances.

Being a Buddhist myself (at least nominally), and a vegetarian as well (a lacto-ovo one), I've seen differences in attitudes towards vegetarianism or lack thereof even within sects. For instance, in Tibetan Buddhism, many of the clergy still eat meat, because that's what they did in Tibet (and I guess it's understandable in Tibet, since it's cold as hell there and meat is so much easier to produce than vegetables), yet some who live over here in the West or in India have tried vegetarian diets. Meanwhile, in many Mahayana sects, meat-eating clergy is a big, big no-no - though not always, as a good number of Mahayana sects (I think) don't care. And then attitudes also differ for laypeople too. Regardless, however, when it comes to clergy, I think that most Buddhist sects that allow for them to eat meat require that they say prayers for the dead animal or bless the meat or something.

Even so, some Buddhists also believe that the circumstances have to be taken into consideration. If you're starving and the only thing you have to eat is meat, then some Buddhists I know have argued that it's fine to eat it, since you have no choice. Others (like my brother) say they would still refuse to do it. Or, as another example, a monk I knew told me that it's fine if you eat the meat of an animal that died of natural causes (like an old one that just dropped dead), because you didn't actually kill the animal or cause it harm, so it's fine.

----

Anyhow, concerning LightSpectra's comments, should we assume that vegetarian means lacto-ovo vegetarianism for this thread?

 

[aronnax]

China's a big place, could you be more specific as to which parts you're talking about?

Well, if you do not count fish as a meat, probably almost everywhere.

If you do count fish as a meat than areas without easy excess to rivers and coast I suppose, though such place in Imperial China proper are far and few.

 

[NovaKart]

From what I've heard, many Hindus won't even eat certain vegetables like garlic.