History questions not worth their own thread IV

[Domen]

Masada made a joke thread prodding at Poland, just for kicks probably.

Domen in turn see's Masada's name, and makes a thread prodding Jews/Israel (because they are one and the same) as a response.

BTW - in the Greatest 5 Jewish Things thread Masada mentioned something about the myth of the Judeo-Bolshevism.

And then a question came to my mind:

Jews always deny that ethnic Jews participated in the Stalinist regime (this is strange because even Poles don't deny that some ethnic Poles did this - like Wanda Wasilewska), but when someone says that the Stalinist regime commited crimes against Jews (like for example me - I mentioned this in several threads) - then not only Russians, but also Jews strongly protest against such "slanders" on Stalinist regime. I wonder why they defend the Stalinist regime so fiercely?

Of course the Stalinist regime did not persecute pro-Communist Jews, but in general persecutions of Jews in the USSR took place.

I saw statistics of deportations to Siberia and other persecutions by the NKVD following the Soviet Invasion of Poland in September 1939 (when the USSR annexed so called "Western Ukraine" and "Western Belarus") - and ethnic Jews were the 2nd most frequently persecuted group - right after ethnic Poles.

Not to mention that some of the officers murdered at Katyn were ethnic Jews, because many ethnic Jews served in the Polish Army.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm not you can ascribe a uniform interpretation of history to all members of a religious group like that, Domen.

 

[Domen]

I am speaking of Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group right know.

As you surely know, there are many atheists and christians among the ethnic Jews.

Regarding the phenomenon of the so called Judeo-Bolshevism:

The collaboration of some Jews (those who were ardent followers of Communism or ardent enemies of the Polish state) with Soviet authorities after September 1939 was indeed a fact. But the myth that most of Jews were willing to denounce the "enemies of the people" to the Soviet authorities, is an exaggeration.

But it is true that the collaboration of some Jews with the Soviet regime, resulted in growth of anti-Semitism among the ethnic Ukrainian, Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Belarusian, etc. populations of the Soviet-occupied western territories. One "Black Sheep" was often enough to give a bad name to entire community.

 

[Flying Pig]

I am speaking of Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group right know.

As you surely know, there are many atheists and christians among the ethnic Jews.

Regarding the phenomenon of the so called Judeo-Bolshevism:

The collaboration of some Jews (those who were ardent followers of Communism or ardent enemies of the Polish state) with the Soviet authorities after September 1939 was indeed a fact. But the myth that most of Jews were willing to denounce the "enemies of the people" to the Soviet authorities, is an exaggeration.

OK, that just makes ascribing a monolithic opinion to them all even worse! It is quite literally no more accurate than my claiming that all Polish people like sausages, but deny that they are better than steaks.

 

[Domen]

Of course but I am speaking generally of not all, but definitely a large group of modern (or perhaps post-WW2) Jews who defend the Soviet authorities and claim that the Stalinist regime was "good", because it liberated them from persecutions by the Nazi Germany. While in fact the Stalinist regime persecuted many Jews as well - but for political and economic reasons (many influential and rich Jews were seen as "bastions" of Capitalism and thus "enemies of the people" - unless they were willing to cooperate with the Communist Party, of course), rather than racial ones.

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It is quite literally no more accurate than my claiming that all Polish people like sausages

Well, my goal is not to propagate stereotypes, but there is something like "opinion of a majority" - and that's what I was talking about.

And regarding the claim that all Polish people like sausages - I suppose that indeed vast majority of Polish people like sausages.

 

[Lord Baal]

I have literally never met a single Jew who said any of those things.

 

[Masada]

Good move brother Baal, soon the smucks will be under our power!

GLORY TO THE PROTOCOLS! JEWS UNITE! JEWS ARE ONE! WE ARE ALL EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE! JEWISH HIVE MIND!

 

[Ajidica]

Why did the Arab states perform so poorly in the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War? I've done some reading on it an it appears that Arab armor and infantry were shattered by the Israeli Air Force*, but it doesn't really address why the IAF did so well. Were the Western planes that much better, was it pilot quality, or was it just home turf advantage where you have the benefit of ground-based radar and SAMs?

*IIRC many of the inital sucesses in the Yom Kippur War occured while Egyptian and Syrian troops were operating under the cover of their own SAMs. Once they left the SAM cover they started getting savaged by the IAF.

 

[JohannaK]

I know very little about these conflicts, but I seem to recall that Israeli pilots were better trained, and trained to be able to do as many as twice the sorties the enemy was able to perform.

 

[Agent327]

They were much better trained - as were the armor crews. The SAMs were a serious problem though. (And as with every campaign, a bit of luck must not be left out.) It is, however, quite remarkable how the IDF outmanoeuvred much bigger forces on several occasions in the Arab-Israeli wars. That definitely points to better quality in forces as well as command.

I am speaking of Jews as an ethnic group, not a religious group right know.

Then you are using a Nazi definition. Judaism is a religion.

 

[sophie]

Then you are using a Nazi definition. Judaism is a religion.

Judaism may be a religion, but "Jewish" is an ethnic group.

 

[Lord Baal]

Why did the Arab states perform so poorly in the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War? I've done some reading on it an it appears that Arab armor and infantry were shattered by the Israeli Air Force*, but it doesn't really address why the IAF did so well. Were the Western planes that much better, was it pilot quality, or was it just home turf advantage where you have the benefit of ground-based radar and SAMs?

*IIRC many of the inital sucesses in the Yom Kippur War occured while Egyptian and Syrian troops were operating under the cover of their own SAMs. Once they left the SAM cover they started getting savaged by the IAF.

Not having an early warning system of any kind screwed over the Arabs in the Six Day War quite badly. The Israelis could literally fly directly to Amman or Damascus without taking any precautions, and the Syrians and Jordanians would only have a few minutes to react. The Egyptians had a system at the border, but none at all over the Mediterranean. So the IDF simply flew due west over the Mediterranean, then turned south when they were over Cairo.

After they smashed Egypt, Nasser, in his usual way, blatantly lied about the progress of the war, claiming to have wiped out a significant portion of the IDF's aerial capability. This prompted Syria and Jordan to join the war, believing themselves to be seizing territory from a defenseless Israel before the region's strongman, Nasser, could gobble it up for himself. Israel simply destroyed their planes on the ground as well. Without air cover to stop them, the IDF could have walked to Cairo without international intervention in the Arabs' favour.

In the Yom Kippur War, the Israelis were caught off guard, both by the attack - similar to Operation: Barbarossa, the Israelis had seen several previous invasion dates go by without Egypt striking, and so disbelieved their intelligence - and by the tactics used, which they hadn't seen before. The IDF quickly regrouped, however, and routed the Egyptians. The Egyptians left their fixed defensive positions, yes, but more importantly they lacked both the training and the ammunition to defeat Israel's second wave of attacks. Despite Nasser's prior focus on "attrition," the Egyptians were much worse at prolonged battles than the Israelis. Inferior training and generalship combined with inferior equipment and a lack of ammunition led to their crushing defeat.

 

[Domen]

Judaism may be a religion, but "Jewish" is an ethnic group.

Exactly.

And in English you write both religious groups and ethnic groups with capital letters (like: Christians - not: christians).

But for example in Polish we write jews (religious group) and Jews (ethnic group), etc.

 

[Dachs]

Exactly.

And in English you write both religious groups and ethnic groups with capital letters (like: Christians - not: christians).

But for example in Polish we write jews (religious group) and Jews (ethnic group), etc.

When you - either "you" meaning "Poles" or "you" meaning "Domen" - use "jew" as a verb, do you capitalize it or write it entirely in lowercase?

 

[Domen]

Depends on the context. In Polish language, names of religions and religious groups are written in lowercase, while names of ethnic groups and nations are capitalized. In English language as far as I know both names of religious groups (like: Catholics) and of ethnic groups are capitalized.

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Let's quote and translate explanation given on this website:

http://www.rjp.pan.pl/index.php?opt...bogbog-ydyd&catid=44:porady-jzykowe&Itemid=58

"[...] name jew / Jew can be written in two ways - in lowercase when it means a believer of a religion, and capitalized - when we speak about a member of a nation. When we write about one person - a jew and a Jew at the same time, so about a believer of a religion, who at the same time is a member of the jewish* nation, then whether we use a lowercase or a capital letter, depends on the context. The context of a sentence "Prayers for peace were done by christians and jews", unambiguously indicates, that it describes believers of religions, which is why the word jew which is part of this sentence, should be written in lowercase. While in the sentence "Prayers for peace were done by Poles and Jews", belongingness of mentioned persons to some national groups is underlined, which is why the verb Jew in this sentence is written with capital letter. While, when the context does not suggest which of the meanings of the word in question is used in a particular sentence, then we should rather write it with capital letter (e.g.: "Many Jews attended classes and I met a young Jew")."

*All adjectives are written entirely in lowercase in polish language.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

 

[Lone Wolf]

When you - either "you" meaning "Poles" or "you" meaning "Domen" - use "jew" as a verb, do you capitalize it or write it entirely in lowercase?

Was this meant to be sarcasm?

On a side note, it's amusing that the neutral word for "Jew" in Polish and Czech is an ethnic slur in Russian.

 

[Domen]

BTW - is "Catholic bit**es" a neutral term / word in Israel?

Because this is how Israeli tennis fans recently called Radwanskie sisters during the match against Glushko and Peer.

So I really hope it's neutral there - they are such a tolerant and non-racist society, after all.

 

[Leoreth]

Exactly.

And in English you write both religious groups and ethnic groups with capital letters (like: Christians - not: christians).

But for example in Polish we write jews (religious group) and Jews (ethnic group), etc.

And this matters why? The fact that it's an ethnic instead of a religious group doesn't suddenly make it okay to attach a certain hivemind opinion to this group to suit your own biases.

 

[Domen]

It matters because it is easier to distinguish when someone writes about ethnic group and when about religious group.

to attach a certain hivemind opinion to this group

I was talking about certain, forum members of this group, guys active in the internet, who usually defend the Stalinist Regime in online discussions. In real life I don't know any Jewish persons (except for my friend's grandfather), so I can't tell anything about their views. But I had contact with some Jews in the internet. While in reality, the Stalinist Regime was the 2nd most oppressive anti-Jewish Regime in history right after the Hitlerite Regime in Germany.