History questions not worth their own thread IV

[Virote_Considon]

Ah, the "Fascism" problem.

 

[Dachs]

Cleruchy?

I'd be hesitant about employing kleroi/klerouchoi in a broader sense than the one in which it is already used, because that word means rather drastically different things even in its own context. When connected to a particular city, the military-colonial system had overt connotations of citizenship and, well, colonialism, not merely the provision of military service for land (which in itself doesn't really fit "feudalism" all that well; just look at the Roman military). But in connection to, for instance, the epigonoi, the kleros system dropped its implications of citizenship and instead assumed cultural ones. Usually, feudalism carries with it some sort of reciprocal connotations, usually involving personal-political activity by the feudatory; the klerouchoi of the epigonoi did not necessarily do this.

 

[LightSpectra]

Ah, the "Fascism" problem.

'Fascism', 'religion', 'feudalism', 'Dark/Golden age(s)', 'barbarian', 'modern', 'advance(ment)/(d)', 'civilization', and 'inevitable'/'necessary' are a handful of buzzwords that should probably just never be used except secondarily (i.e. in describing someone else's opinion on those words).

 

[Dachs]

Fascism actually does have a fairly good definition, it's just ignored and overused wrongly.

 

[Ajidica]

I'd throw 'totalitarian' into that list given how absolutely meaningless and misleading it is.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Gentile gave a good definition of Totalitarianism.
It was listened to approximately once, in an American editorial by a priest in the 1930s and then promptly forgotten by everyone who wasn't Gentile.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Mind you Gentile himself has been all but forgotten by everyone who wasn't Gentile, so that ain't saying much

 

[ParkCungHee]

Five char.

 

[Virote_Considon]

The funniest thing is that I read your reaction as insinuating that you are Gentile, silently but visibly disappointed that no-one remembers you.

 

[ParkCungHee]

 

[LightSpectra]

what does being uncircumcised have to do with the definition of fascism, and which gentile are we talking about?

 

[Flying Pig]

But in connection to, for instance, the epigonoi, the kleros system dropped its implications of citizenship and instead assumed cultural ones.

Can you explain this one? I know the Ptolomaic rulers of Egypt would give land to Celtic soldiers from Galatia so that they would serve (particularly on what we would now call Operations Other Than War) in the army and have enough time to devote to military training; is that what you're referring to?

Thinking about it, the practice was common enough throughout history - Mexico extended the offer of land for political and religious allegiance to American settles in the run-up to 1836, and Irish Gallowglasses were paid in land, and those two just off the top of my head - that it must have a name, but I can't think of it or find it online.

what does being uncircumcised have to do with the definition of fascism, and which gentile are we talking about?

‘comprehensive, all embracing, pervasive – the total state.’

or, as Mussolini put it:

Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state

 

[ParkCungHee]

what does being uncircumcised have to do with the definition of fascism, and which gentile are we talking about?

Giovanni Gentile. The guy wrote the books on Fascism.

 

[LightSpectra]

But was he a gentile?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Irish Gallowglasses were paid in land, and those two just off the top of my head - that it must have a name, but I can't think of it or find it online.

Gallowglasses weren't paid in land, they were paid in goods or cash which they took back to Scotland. The fact that they were paid this way allowed them to bypass and weaken the traditional system of Irish Vassalage, as Overlords would hire the Gallowglasses so they could collect tribute, pay the Gallowglasses with the tribute, and send them as far away as physically possible afterwards.

 

[Dachs]

Can you explain this one? I know the Ptolomaic rulers of Egypt would give land to Celtic soldiers from Galatia so that they would serve (particularly on what we would now call Operations Other Than War) in the army and have enough time to devote to military training; is that what you're referring to?

Well, the Ptolemaioi broke pretty much every rule in the book compared to the other epigonoi; their Galatians don't exactly fit the rule there, and were more of an effort to keep a line on a supply of good manpower despite the end of their geographical proximity after the wars of Antiochos Megas. But when you talk about the AS, or the Euthydemoi and Eukratidai, or the Attaloi, klerouchoi were effectively the primary bunch of "Greeks" in the East compared to the overall population, and assumed cultural relevance because of this. Greekness was basically measured against them and what they did. Civic Greek culture, while not irrelevant, even in the East, was eclipsed to an extent by the soldiers.

 

[Flying Pig]

Gallowglasses weren't paid in land, they were paid in goods or cash which they took back to Scotland. The fact that they were paid this way allowed them to bypass and weaken the traditional system of Irish Vassalage, as Overlords would hire the Gallowglasses so they could collect tribute, pay the Gallowglasses with the tribute, and send them as far away as physically possible afterwards.

That was the original system, but it soon changed - I'll quote Wiki because it's quicker:

In return for military service, gallowglass contingents were given land and settled in Irish lordships, where they were entitled to receive supplies from the local population.

Well, the Ptolemaioi broke pretty much every rule in the book compared to the other epigonoi; their Galatians don't exactly fit the rule there, and were more of an effort to keep a line on a supply of good manpower despite the end of their geographical proximity after the wars of Antiochos Megas. But when you talk about the AS, or the Euthydemoi and Eukratidai, or the Attaloi, klerouchoi were effectively the primary bunch of "Greeks" in the East compared to the overall population, and assumed cultural relevance because of this. Greekness was basically measured against them and what they did. Civic Greek culture, while not irrelevant, even in the East, was eclipsed to an extent by the soldiers.

So something along the lines of the Roman colonia - a cultural outpost from which it was hoped that Greek values would flow and influence the natives?

Also, genuinely out of curiosity - is there any reason why you always transcribe the Greek names for people, states etc rather than using the Anglicised version? I would certainly have said 'Antiochus the Great' (OK, I lied; I would have said 'Antiochus III') at least, and 'Seleucid Empire'.

 

[ParkCungHee]

That was the original system, but it soon changed - I'll quote Wiki because it's quicker:

You got that backwards. The early Gallowglasses, which tended to be small in number and disorganized were given land (of course land ownership in Ireland being it's own complex matter to unpackage), but by the time the Gallowglasses really became a thing in the 15th and 16th centuries, Cash and Kind was the rule, and land was given, or taken, as an exception that made no one happy.
I mean, simply the number of Gallowglasses flooding into and out of the country indicated that, because otherwise Scotsmen would be coming over for half an acre.

 

[Flying Pig]

You may be right - this article seems to suggest that they were first paid in cattle, and later in land, although it doesn't seem to extend to the 15th Century, and it sort of implies that they reverted to 'cash in hand', as it were, later on.

 

[Dachs]

So something along the lines of the Roman colonia - a cultural outpost from which it was hoped that Greek values would flow and influence the natives?

Also, genuinely out of curiosity - is there any reason why you always transcribe the Greek names for people, states etc rather than using the Anglicised version? I would certainly have said 'Antiochus the Great' (OK, I lied; I would have said 'Antiochus III') at least, and 'Seleucid Empire'.

No, because the Greeks, by and large, weren't really interested in making anybody Greek, outside of possibly the Euthydemoi (and Tarn's the guy who came up with that claim so lolololol).

I tend to avoid the Latinized version of Greek names because it's a crappy transliteration, in my opinion. It looks bad and it rarely gets the sense of the pronunciation across. And I consider Latinization a side effect of the old-school way of studying classics, the way that upper class twits still learn at places like Eton, which is objectively loathsome and should be avoided at all costs.