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History questions not worth their own thread IV

Discussion in 'World History' started by Plotinus, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Super Moderator

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    Of course they're not, but a criticism on theological grounds does not necessarily contain or imply a criticism on ethical grounds.

    I'm not saying the church shouldn't have criticised the Nazis on these grounds. I'm just saying that it falls short of what we would consider a full rejection of Nazism. The church's main objection to the Nazis was that they didn't let the church do its thing as freely as it would have liked. And I think we can all agree that, while that is a reasonable criticism, it's not exactly the worst thing about the Nazis.

    This is true. And that must have been one lengthy Mass even as it was. However, I'm not saying that the encyclical necessarily should have offered more criticisms or different kinds of criticisms; I'm just saying that the fact that it doesn't (understandable though that may have been) means that one can't really point to it as a "smoking gun" for the utter rejection and condemnation of Nazi ideology and practices that some would want it to be - including, I would say, your post in which you brought it up. After all, as far as I know, the Catholic Church also considers the Society of Friends to be inconsistent with Catholicism; but if the Catholic Church rejects the Nazis only for the same reasons and to the same extent as it rejects the Quakers, something's gone wrong. This may seem a trite way of putting it, but I don't read anything in Mit brennender Sorge that rejects Nazism any more, and for any different reasons, than the Catholic Church would reject Quakerism. And that, of course, is not to say that the church doesn't reject Nazism more profoundly than it does Quakerism - merely that the evidence for this is not, to my mind, to be found in that document.
     
  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    The point of bringing up Ilyin was exactly demonstrating that ideological rejection of Nazism doesn't necessarily imply an utter and wholesale rejection of it. It's easy, at the first glance, to portray him as an anti-Nazi activist - come on, he was characterizing Hitler and Mussolini's movements as idolatrous caesarist national mania, and had to emigrate from Nazi Germany for fear of persecution! Except that he was willing to forgive the Nazis a lot and criticized them, however harshly, from a position of a sympathizer - it's just that the Nazis had no use for criticizers, no matter how sympathetic.
     
  3. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    There's also the problem that regardless of whether the Church rejected Nazism and Fascism in particular, it was demonstrably quite comfortable with far-right authoritarian regimes in general, at least those of a sufficiently Catholic character, such as Francoist Spain, VF Austria, Estado Novo Portugal and Vichy France. When the best you can claim for an organisation is that it draws the line just short of Mussolini, you're really not doing that well.
     
  4. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    Was extermination of Jews since the beginning the Nazi plan, or did they really want to expell them to Africa as they claimed in public in the early phase of WW2?

    For example - I found text of a "project concerning the dealing with foreign elements in the East" written by Heinrich Himmler and published on 28 May 1940 (before that approved by Adolf Hitler on 25 May 1940). The title of this document is "Einige Gedanken uber die Behandlung der Fremdvolkischer in Osten".

    Here are some of its fragments translated to English (the first fragment is the Introduction):

    "... On Saturday 25 May 1940 I presented to Fuhrer my project concerning the dealing with foreign elements in the East. Fuhrer - after reading it - judged it as righteous and reasonable... Fuhrer ordered me to call to Berlin Governor-General Frank, in order to show him my project and tell him that Fuhrer approves it...

    ... We must take care for the largest possible amount of national groups. Not just Poles and Jews, but also Belarussians, Ukrainians, Highlanders, Kashubs and Lemkos... It is important for us not to deal with one, unified nation, but it is in our interest that this nation is fragmented into plenty of individual, small parts. We must prevent any consolidation of national culture between those parts, because our goul is to crumble those people into countless fragments... We need to disintegrate into shapeless mass 15 million population of the General Gouvernement and 8 million in new eastern provinces of the Reich...

    ... In several years from now, perhaps no more than 4 or 5, the - for example - Kashub issue shall no longer exist - as there will be no trace of Kashubs... The same refers to Masurians... I also expect that the word "Jew" will disappear completely, thanks to deportation of all Jews to Africa... After just a bit longer time we shall be able to also completely remove from our territories all memory of such tribes like Ukrainians or Highlanders... The same in broader terms will also concern the Poles...

    ... For non-German population in eastern territories there should not exist any school higher than four-class primary school. Education programme of these communal schools shall include the knowledge of counting to 500, not higher. It shall also teach children the principles given by God: submission to Germans, necessity of being honest, hard-working and brave. I do not - on the other hand - consider as necessary to teach them reading... Apart from this type of schools no other ones can exist in the East...

    ... Parents wanting better education for their children will be obliged to send a proper request to local SS or Police authorities. If their children represent a desirable racial type, they will be evacuated to Germany for education, they will be given new surnames and they will stay there forever... Parents of such children must either disclaim them - and probably as the result also resign from having further progeny, which will remove the danger of this subhuman nation breeding types with leadership skills - or emigrate to Germany, in order to, after changing their surname, enter the German world. But caution and supervision will still have to be applied regarding such parents...

    ... After systematic operations, only population consisting of just subhuman elements will remain in the General Gouvernement. This depersonalized, deprived of their identity mass of people will become a human resource, designed as laborers for construction projects in Germany...

    ... Deprived of culture, under severe, consistent and righteous leadership of the German Nation Poles will participate in the task of creating eternal cultural values, such as the construction of monuments and great buildings. Regarding the latter ones, they will repeatedly enable their creating, providing necessary amounts of labour force..."
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I think you're over-estimating the Nazis if you think that they had a coherent long-term plan for anything.
     
  6. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Wow, that was so wrong is so many levels. :mad:
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    What, me, Domen, or Hitler?
     
  8. Domen

    Domen Misico dux Vandalorum

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    I think that Himmler's plan quoted above (and wrong = evil in this case, right?).
     
  9. SeekTruthFromFacts

    SeekTruthFromFacts King

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    Hang on, isn't this putting the Roman Catholics on the tines of Morton's fork? When they condemned the Nazis for theological reasons, then they missed the wood for the trees. When they condemned the Nazis for euthanasia, that's a moral protest, nothing to do with their religious beliefs.

    I'm not suggesting an evil plot to trap LightSpectra (neo-Platonists and Canaanite pagans make unlikely bedfellows ;) ), but I'd also give the RCs a bit of a pass if they didn't manage to line up all their theological-ethical points into one document. There was a colossal amount of ugly anti-semitism in German Catholicism, as in wider German society. The chances of it being rooted out in the midst of persecution were minimal.

    I guess this factor is mitigated by the fact that key people in the RC hierarchy were sitting pretty in the Vatican, out of reach of the Gestapo. But then I also guess (I'm no expert on this topic) that many of the Italian career officials would have grown up under the ghettoized mindset that they were "prisoners in the Vatican".

    I've spent a lot of time around people whose governments don't like them, and they tend to either completely cave in to the pressure or become immovable as a rock (even on minor issues). They don't always have the energy to see others' predicaments. How often did African-Americans fight for the rights of Native Americans? How many Afrikaners volunteered to fight against Communism in Vietnam? When did you last see a Palestinian protest demanding equal rights for Messianic Jews? Whether your cause is just or not, when you're under pressure it's even harder to love others. And of course it makes it all the more admirable when someone does do that - relevant examples for this discussion would be Jesus, and those recognized as 'Righteous among the Nations'.
     
  10. History_Buff

    History_Buff Knight of Cydonia

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    In other World War goodness, was there ever any thought amongst the Germans about offering the western allies some sort of negotiated peace after the withdrawn of the Bolsheviks from the war in December 1917? Or would Britain and France have rejected this out of hand?
     
  11. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    Did the Zoroastrians proselytize much, especially in the Sassanid era? I know a lot of Sassanids were Christian, and the Persian Church seems to have been a reasonably big deal, but there doesn't seem to have been much conversion the other way around, except by force.
     
  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The Fascists did won a relative majority. And the n they fixed the next election with the complicity of several other prominent politicians, including those from the catholic party. As with Germany the catholic party's position was 'better a right-wing dictator than those dangerous socialists..."

    That those particular dictators didn't had any use for the church must have come as a shock to those collaborationists later.
     
  13. History_Buff

    History_Buff Knight of Cydonia

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    Actually, I don't think that's true. The German catholic parties tended to be on the center-left of the spectrum. A lot of the guys that would go on to hand power to Hitler and the NSDAP didn't much care for those types.
     
  14. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Ludendorff specifically rejected this, because integral to any of his demands would have been the retention of Belgium in some form - probably as a shrunken puppet state - and this would not have been acceptable to the Western Allies. He called the spring offensives the "Peace Offensives" because they were supposed to force the Entente powers into a position from which they had to make peace, not because it was supposed to be coordinated with a meaningful diplomatic offensive.
     
  15. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    That's why Kill Bill Part II is better than Kill Bill Part I, and the best part of Kill Bill Part I is the part with Sonny Chiba.
     
  16. History_Buff

    History_Buff Knight of Cydonia

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    By "retention of Belgium" I take it you mean annexations of some parts of Belgium to Germany, and political control over the rest?
     
  17. ace99

    ace99 Deity

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    Does anyone have information, details about the Cult of Sol Inviticus and it's relationship with Mithraism? Why were both of those cults popular with the late Roman Empire and its military? Were the Fest of the Unconquerable Sun and Festival of Mithra's Birth both celebrated at the same time? One or the other? Were these contemporary religions?

    Were these primarily monotheistic religions or more the worship of a specific deity in a larger pantheon? Was there any prospect that they could evolve into a widely worshiped monotheistic faith that could supplant Christianity?
     
  18. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Hitler & Himmler quote obviously. :lol:

    Guess it's been awhile since I read exactly what the Nazi's intended.
     
  19. Lord Baal

    Lord Baal Deity

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    The Nazis never really had a well-thought out long-term plan for anything. The idea of the final solution evolved over time.

    Originally, attitudes to Jews, and their treatment, tended to be the province of whichever military or Party officials happend to be on the scene. In 1940, Himmler and the SS began to take a keener interest in the issue, but originally this was also very disjointed and subject to local issues. Adolf Eichmann wanted to expropriate the wealth of the Jews as quickly and efficiently as possible, and was supported in this by Goering. This would take the process of organised emigration, the so-called Viennese Model invented by Eichmann in 1938, after the Anschluss.

    Himmler, on the other hand, was only interested in getting rid of the Jews, and tended to want to deport them to the USSR, often by having them woken in the middle of the night and simply carted to the border. He also carted them to the borders of the General Government, but Frank opposed this and tended to ship them back when he could. Eventually, Himmler decided it would be best to simply kill them, especially when he became aware of Hitler's plans to invade the USSR. Any Jews who were taken from Poland to the USSR would only be postponing the problem at that point.

    Heydrich was interested in using Jews for slave labour, both for economic and ideological reasons. This often amounted to working the Jews to death, even if this made no economic sense. The military was mostly concerned with the possibility of Jews forming partisan units in the conquered territories, which led them to treat the Jews very differently depending on who was in command in the area. Some officers executed Jews, some rounded them up but didn't actively try to harm them, while others simply left them alone.

    In the Balkans the Italians would often intervene to protect Jews from both the Germans and the locals, which vastly complicated matters for Hitler there. Likewise, the Bulgarians did as little as they felt they could get away with in handing over Jews. Hungary treated Hungarian Jews quite well, but both Hungary and Romania were positively brutal to the Jews in the USSR. Nazi policy towards the Jews was not really finalized until the infamous Wannsee Conference, and even then there were changes afterwards.

    We Canaanites are an untrustworthy breed. Our alliances shift like sand, and are always to the benefit of almighty Ba'al.

    I do see your point. And you're not completely wrong; I'm sure religious sentiments played their part in the anti-euthanasia protests. Many of those protesting were priests, both Catholic and Protestant, and they no doubt helped inspire the majority of the protesters. But the real reason for the protests was not religious sentiments, but fear. Many people had family in sanitariums, both for the mentally ill and the physically deformed. While originally the Nazis only targeted the mentally ill, it wasn't much of a stretch to assume those who suffered from physical deformities or had suffered accidents such as paralysis would be next on the Nazi hit-list - as indeed they were - and this inspired countless families to actively protest the action. Indeed they protested it to the point that Hitler had to call a temporary halt.
     
  20. r16

    r16 not deity

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    the thing for early period is a strict belief in a global conspiracy where the Jews ruled the world and they were so fond of their brothers . Nazis would push them out and Americans would collect , perhaps paying some coin as well . This is the essence of the Madagascar proposal , because too many Jews in the US would unbalance Washington and would bring them into the war , the "stock" was to be kept at a kinda neutral position at Western expense and the smart Nazis could turn the island into an impregnable fortress - by Jewish slaves of course- to assist them in their further conquests in the 1960-70s period -once they had digested the Soviets .

    the Wannsee becomes a more active blackmail , considering the US is now in the war ; and ı have this weird fascination with Eichmann's selling of Hungarian Jews first for 2 million UK pounds and after Wehrmacht intervention 10 000 trucks . ı have been told Swedes were actually selling iron ore per kilogramme of living kids at one point late in the war and Germans were cheating by adding purely German orphans but there was no reaction . [ No sources , as usual ]
     
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