History questions not worth their own thread IV

[Cutlass]

Civ 4 didn't make any more attempt to portray the characteristics of the different religions than the look of their missionaries, buildings, and the symbol used to represent them.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yes, but at least they did that much. It's a stretch to say hinduism was any and all polytheistic religions.

 

[GamezRule]

How could the Norman Invasion of England have failed?

 

[kiwitt]

Yes, but at least they did that much. It's a stretch to say hinduism was any and all polytheistic religions.

So what do you suggest I do ... ignore them, given the limitations of the religions available.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Who drew the borders of Africa, I would like names so I can forever include them in the worst people in history. The borders of Africa are stupid, illogical and dangerous. For example Nigeria has 8 Ethnology-linguistic groups!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

So what do you suggest I do ... ignore them, given the limitations of the religions available.

Oh sorry, I don't know what to suggest. I was just nitpicking someone else for something false they said. I feel bad for not being more constructive.

 

[Cutlass]

So what do you suggest I do ... ignore them, given the limitations of the religions available.

I think the way to look at it is that the inherent characteristics of the religions don't really describe what it appears that you are trying to describe. If you look at the religions in Civ4, they are the same in the game even though they are very different in the world. But there are some aspects of them that are the same in the world. In fact, of the 6 on that list, Judaism is the outlier. And by that I mean it's the only one that doesn't have followers numbered in the 100s of millions.

So by that token, if, as I get the impression you are, you are looking for something to represent the many religions, many of them polytheistic, many now lumped together under what is called paganism, you can't really do that because it was not one thing, but rather 1000s of different things. And for the purposes of the game, the label "paganism" is close enough. Many of those pagan religions may have had things in common, and certainly many of them had more things not in common. But what they shared in common most was that these were essentially local religions. And the 6 on the Civ4 list are either global, or at least cover very broad regions.

 

[Lord Baal]

How could the Norman Invasion of England have failed?

Quiteeasily, actually. The success of the invasion hinged on one battle. Change the outcome, or avoid fighting in such a disadvantageous position, and William the Bastard fails in his conquest.

Who drew the borders of Africa, I would like names so I can forever include them in the worst people in history. The borders of Africa are stupid, illogical and dangerous. For example Nigeria has 8 Ethnology-linguistic groups!

The Berlin Conference did much of the work.

 

[madviking]

How could the Norman Invasion of England have failed?

Winds could've not blown the right way.

 

[kiwitt]

I think the way to look at it is that the inherent characteristics of the religions don't really describe what it appears that you are trying to describe. If you look at the religions in Civ4, they are the same in the game even though they are very different in the world. But there are some aspects of them that are the same in the world. In fact, of the 6 on that list, Judaism is the outlier. And by that I mean it's the only one that doesn't have followers numbered in the 100s of millions.

So by that token, if, as I get the impression you are, you are looking for something to represent the many religions, many of them polytheistic, many now lumped together under what is called paganism, you can't really do that because it was not one thing, but rather 1000s of different things. And for the purposes of the game, the label "paganism" is close enough. Many of those pagan religions may have had things in common, and certainly many of them had more things not in common. But what they shared in common most was that these were essentially local religions. And the 6 on the Civ4 list are either global, or at least cover very broad regions.

So If I consider them as "paganism", i.e. none, that will be fine. I'll try that and see.

 

[W|M]

How could the Norman Invasion of England have failed?

Harald Hardrada could have won at Stamford Bridge, and subsequently pushed back the Normans as well.

 

[innonimatu]

The Berlin Conference did much of the work.

True. But more recently the United Nations' insistence (the almost unanimity of the countries represented there) that colonies be granted independence without being further split also contributed. Though that usually suited the former colonial powers anyway, and it certainly suited many of those who were to take over power from them: they tended to have big ambitions.

 

[ace99]

Who drew the borders of Africa, I would like names so I can forever include them in the worst people in history. The borders of Africa are stupid, illogical and dangerous. For example Nigeria has 8 Ethnology-linguistic groups!

Maybe but I don't think you can necessarily draw a conclusion that it's a bad thing. Indonesia and India do alright despite having far more divisions.

True. But more recently the United Nations' insistence (the almost unanimity of the countries represented there) that colonies be granted independence without being further split also contributed. Though that usually suited the former colonial powers anyway, and it certainly suited many of those who were to take over power from them: they tended to have big ambitions.

The history of partition doesn't really give me a lot of confidence that dividing the colonies more would have been better. Though to South Sudan and Sudan's credit they haven't gone to war yet despite clashes so I suppose that's something.

 

[Phrossack]

How could the Norman Invasion of England have failed?

Very easily. William burned his ships to eliminate the possibility of retreat. He was nearly killed several times at Hastings and lost several horses under him. Rumors of his death nearly caused a rout until he proved to be alive, and even then the battle was tough; the English shieldwall held firm all day despite frequent Norman attacks, and had they stood their ground rather than pursue the Normans' feigned retreat, they could have won.

 

[Lord Baal]

True. But more recently the United Nations' insistence (the almost unanimity of the countries represented there) that colonies be granted independence without being further split also contributed. Though that usually suited the former colonial powers anyway, and it certainly suited many of those who were to take over power from them: they tended to have big ambitions.

This is true. Nigeria and the Congo are certainly colonies that would have been much better off split into more than one state upon independence.

 

[Plotinus]

On the other hand, Nigeria did split into separate states later on, and look what happened.

Of course that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better off split up from an earlier stage. One might say that the bitterness of the Biafran War reflects the determination of some Nigerians to keep Nigeria unified as well as that of others to keep the states separate, and the former was strengthened by the unequal distribution of power among the various peoples that was part of the independence settlement in the first place.

(Tragicomic note: I just looked up "Nigerian Civil War" on Wikipedia, where I see in the sidebar the "Result" is simply "Nigerian victory". Which leads to me to think (a) given that this was a civil war, it tells us nothing, and (b) the results of that war were far more horrific than that simple verdict suggests.)

 

[LightSpectra]

This is not true of CIV at all. Hinduism was hinduisim, not some nebulous 'polytheism'. You could argue that neither hinduism nor any other religion in CIV did a good job of portraying the tennants of their actual religions. But they definately didn't make Hinduism a stand in for all polytheistic religions.

It's the only polytheistic confession in the whole game, and you automatically get it by researching a blanket-all "Polytheism" tech. You're making mountains out of mole-holes by trying to be precise about what Civ4 portrays.

 

[say1988]

(Tragicomic note: I just looked up "Nigerian Civil War" on Wikipedia, where I see in the sidebar the "Result" is simply "Nigerian victory". Which leads to me to think (a) given that this was a civil war, it tells us nothing, and (b) the results of that war were far more horrific than that simple verdict suggests.)

I can agree with the latter part, but I would say "Nigerian victory" is quite accutate. The Nigerian government won and the Biafrans, claiming not to be Nigerians, lost. In a separatist situation, this makes sense (eg the USA won the American Civil War, the CSA lost). In a situation where they are fighting over the whole country (eg the English Civil War between Parliamentarians and Royalists) it doesn't make sense since both claim to represent the country.

 

[Plotinus]

I can agree with the latter part, but I would say "Nigerian victory" is quite accutate. The Nigerian government won and the Biafrans, claiming not to be Nigerians, lost. In a separatist situation, this makes sense (eg the USA won the American Civil War, the CSA lost). In a situation where they are fighting over the whole country (eg the English Civil War between Parliamentarians and Royalists) it doesn't make sense since both claim to represent the country.

I know what you mean, and that was my thought too. I suppose there would be no other way of putting it, at least not so briefly. But you must admit that if someone who didn't know that the war was fought with a breakaway state (American Civil War-style) were to stumble across the page, the revelation that the Nigerian Civil War was won by the Nigerians would appear unremarkable, to put it mildly.

 

[ace99]

"My lord! Nigeria has declared war on Nigeria for control of Nigeria! We are allied to Nigeria, shall we honor our alliance with Nigeria or come to the aid of Nigeria?"