History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VIII

Two questions I have:

1) what realistic chance would the Nazis have of invading Britain were it not for their attack on the Soviet Union, thus forcing their armies to split in two?

2) Without Hitler attacking the Soviet Union, would Stalin just do nothing and not get involved in the war if left unprovoked? If so, would this have made it almost impossible for the allies to win?
 
Two questions I have:

1) what realistic chance would the Nazis have of invading Britain were it not for their attack on the Soviet Union, thus forcing their armies to split in two?

2) Without Hitler attacking the Soviet Union, would Stalin just do nothing and not get involved in the war if left unprovoked? If so, would this have made it almost impossible for the allies to win?

There was no realistic chance. The Nazis had barely any capability to transport troops across the sea. The Afrika Korps was an exception, but prevailed due to some episode of Italian control of the sea which soon evaporated. The Home Fleet and every armed hulk the UK could bring to arms would had flooded the channel and the RAF, home units et al simply would not stop until whatever poor batch of paratroopers sacrificed for appeasing Hitler were dead or captured.

Stalin would had probably engaged Hitler in '43 or '45 at the latest. The pact they made was simply a breather. Hitler struck first and caught Stalin off-guard not because he considered him a friend or manageable but simply because it was too soon in his mind. The war would had lasted a bit longer but not much would had changed, especially if the US still props up the UK and goes on to liberate France and Italy thereof. They might had not had pushed into Germany, and the Soviets would simply grind down the East, and it'll be two wars ongoing at the same time, but the result would be the same.
 
it would take real concentration on part of the Nazis , staying defensive and making sure their preparations were seen by the Soviets . Taking control of the Suez Canal on the minimum , "humiliating" London to maximum extent for a negotiated peace . If not , be wizards in tech to have maximum amount of toys they were forced to develop but could not deploy in time for a landing in '43 to '44 . But the entire thing is still moot as the deal was Germans destroying Bolsheviks and the similar . The accident of France was exciting but Adolf soon returned to "factory settings" .
 
Two questions I have:

1) what realistic chance would the Nazis have of invading Britain were it not for their attack on the Soviet Union, thus forcing their armies to split in two?
Oh, the Nazis were eminently capable of invading Britain. Invading wasn't the issue.

Although it took a long time for the Wehrmacht to amass extemporized shipping, by late summer of 1940 the Germans had an assortment of craft that were sufficient to get several divisions onshore. (By the winter of 1940-41 they had even better, purpose-built landing craft of considerable value. Those craft would later prove excellent for use in the Mediterranean, Aegean, and Black Seas.) They also had their Fallschirmjäger formations. The RAF was seriously weakened, although of course never destroyed, and German initiative, light naval forces, and airpower would have made opposing a dash across the Channel difficult for the Royal Navy. British naval forces took a great deal of damage in the Mediterranean and Aegean at the hands of German dive bombers, even late in the war, and the E-boats and S-boats could do a lot of damage as well. German inferiority in capital ships and destroyers was a real but not insurmountable obstacle.

But, well, that's landing. And after the Germans landed, they would have had to fight.

The state of British coastal defenses was somewhat poor, and the formations mobilized to defend the south were of dubious value and certainly of lower quality than the early-wave Wehrmacht divisions. But they were something. And while the Royal Navy and RAF might have been hard pressed to oppose the initial landings, they could absolutely have wreaked havoc with German supply lines after the invasion.

Ultimately, the whole thing would have rested on British morale. If the defenders cracked like they did in the Low Countries, the game was up. If they could stay in line and make the Germans pay for their ground, then that would've evened things up considerably. And nobody really has any idea how the British Army would have fought: some of its leaders were very pessimistic and some were not. It's an unanswerable question, but the Germans absolutely had an outside shot at successfully invading Britain if they stayed focused (both grand-strategically and strategically) and if they got one or two within-the-realm-of-possibility-if-not-probability breaks.
2) Without Hitler attacking the Soviet Union, would Stalin just do nothing and not get involved in the war if left unprovoked? If so, would this have made it almost impossible for the allies to win?
We don't really know. The case for eventual Soviet intervention used to be significantly stronger before the collapse of the Icebreaker thesis made most of the assertions connected with it untenable. RKKA war plans remained oriented to the strategic defensive, although operationally the Red Army General Staff suggested a spoiling attack to break up German concentrations. Ultimately, however, Stalin would have made the decision and he left no guideline to his thought whatsoever. Any comments made after 22 June 1941 are suspect. It was convenient for everybody to deny that they thought the arrangement could last after it collapsed, but the USSR's leadership continued to make moves indicating the value of the non-aggression pact and the close relationship with Nazi Germany up to the actual invasion.
 
1) what realistic chance would the Nazis have of invading Britain were it not for their attack on the Soviet Union, thus forcing their armies to split in two?
I've heard it described that the only way the Nazis could have successfully invaded Britain is if the sailors of the Royal Navy fell off their ships laughing to hard at the jury-rigged barges and Rhine pleasure boats the Nazis were planning to use as landing craft. If the Nazis delayed their timeline for Sealion they would end up in an even poorer position as the British Empire was in full on rearmament mode by 1940s and were marshaling the resources of the largest empire in the world - ruling a quarter of its landmass and a fifth of its population. The Nazis quite simply couldn't compete (and that is without mentioning the United States).

The case for eventual Soviet intervention used to be significantly stronger before the collapse of the Icebreaker thesis made most of the assertions connected with it untenable.
Could you elaborate? I've read it on this forum often, and by posters I generally respect, that it was a pretty uncontroversial statement that Stalin and the Red Amy were planning a general offensive into central/western Europe in the mid to late 40s.
 
I've heard it described that the only way the Nazis could have successfully invaded Britain is if the sailors of the Royal Navy fell off their ships laughing to hard at the jury-rigged barges and Rhine pleasure boats the Nazis were planning to use as landing craft. If the Nazis delayed their timeline for Sealion they would end up in an even poorer position as the British Empire was in full on rearmament mode by 1940s and were marshaling the resources of the largest empire in the world - ruling a quarter of its landmass and a fifth of its population. The Nazis quite simply couldn't compete (and that is without mentioning the United States).
That's a ridiculous description.

The British defense of the home islands was deeply flawed in and of itself and susceptible to numerous vulnerabilities. Edmund Ironside dispersed his forces dangerously (to the point that he even deployed troops in the West Country to guard against a phantom invasion from Ireland) and only held the coast itself with a thin outpost line due to manpower deficiencies. Defense was designed to be passive and involve withdrawal from phase line to phase line. Ironside did not even create a general reserve. Those dispositions were changed after July 1940, but only slowly, so that maldeployment persisted well into 1941. Even when the British started to focus on likely targets and collect reserves, they picked the wrong ones. Alan Brooke decided that the Germans were most likely to target East Anglia because it was good tank country, even though virtually all of the Wehrmacht's actual planning emphasized a Channel crossing to the southern English coast. Most reconnaissance assets were over the North Sea, meaning that the British were most likely to detect the German invasion as many as six hours after it actually left harbor. Much like the oft-mocked German defenders of Western Europe in 1944, the British of 1940 and 1941 made an awful lot of mistakes in preparing for a German invasion.

Britain was indeed amassing impressive resources backed by a vast overseas support network. But those resources were in turn cavalierly dissipated on the trivia generated by that vast overseas support network. Britain sent valuable planes and troops to North Africa, West Africa, the Middle East, India, and Singapore even in the dark days of summer and fall 1940. This was not because Great Britain itself was well protected. It was in spite of Great Britain's dangerous vulnerability. At the very moment when the RAF was reeling from Luftwaffe attacks and warning orders were going out to prepare for a German invasion in September 1940, the Royal Navy was sending 4,200 Royal Marines, two battleships, five cruisers, and twelve destroyers to Dakar to fight Vichy France for no obvious strategic reason at all. The British victory in Operation COMPASS in December was quite impressive, but victory in Cyrenaica over the Italians was purchased at the price of the 2nd and 7th Royal Tank Regiments and 3rd Hussars, dispatched from Great Britain in August. More of Churchill's pet projects consumed resources during these crucial months, like inaccurate "Z-battery" rockets, trench-busting "Nellie" vehicles, and "Beaverette" armored cars. The "Nellie" in particular, officially called "Cultivator No. 6", was a massive 130-ton vehicle with no weapons and paper-thin armor designed to circumvent fortifications from World War I. It was, as Robert Forczyk says, every bit as ridiculous as the infamous Maus tank and its development continued well after there was obviously no point in making it at all. This dispersal of resources meant that at the sharp end of a battle for the Channel and the south coast of England, the British would have been quite a bit weaker than their production numbers might have called for. Hell, even their manpower was poorly distributed. While the regular forces of the British Army languished with low replacement levels for virtually the entire war, large numbers - perhaps as many as half a million! - of teenagers and men in their twenties stayed in the useless Home Guard formations.

While the RAF possessed a solid core of fighter aircraft and reasonably competent level bombers, neither asset would be particularly useful against an incoming invasion fleet. British close air support and dive bombing units were both small and poorly armed, and very vulnerable to air interception. They lacked the capability to mount a sustained and well-coordinated fight against an invasion fleet in the Channel. The panic response to the "Channel Dash" in 1942 exposed the weak state of British air and sea defenses there for what they really were: no German warships were sunk and a negligible amount of crewmen were killed against disproportionate British losses in airframes and pilots. Against an invasion fleet, the British would have had little room for embarrassment. And finally, while the RAF's Fighter Command was very good at defensive GCI radar intercept missions in daylight, it took frightening losses all the same. While Fighter Command's available airframe and pilot numbers grew during the Battle of Britain, that was largely due to cutting the number of hours required to qualify pilots and paring Fighter Command's actual mission down to, essentially, GCI and nothing else. Now, once the invasion was already underway and German forces were already on English soil, the RAF would be much better positioned to fight - but only if the British avoided hurling the kitchen sink at the Germans during the actual invasion as a panic move. There is no particular reason to have any overwhelming amount of confidence in the British military of 1940 to avoid panic.

The Royal Navy was also not well deployed to fight the Germans in the Channel for the very good reason that the Royal Navy's leaders thought that the Channel was a potential death trap for capital ships. Charles Forbes had only five capital ships in home waters in September 1940 and only one, HMS Revenge, was on the south coast of England (and only then after Churchill gave him a direct order to deploy it to Portsmouth). It was backstopped by seven light cruisers and thirty-eight destroyers and destroyer escorts. Most of the vessels available for Channel service were Great War vintage or older. They would not have deployed against the five invasion fleets en masse but rather attacked in waves to avoid fratricide at night; based on response times from invasion threats, they were only likely to be able to even engage two out of five invasion fleets. The Germans had extensive minefields to cover their flanks, which would further slow the British response. The British lacked surface radar on the Channel ships, meaning that their hit probability was quite low. The barges were shallow-draft, which some historians have argued would mean that they could just be swamped by bow waves from the destroyers, but closing to that range would've been extraordinarily dangerous against the defensive assortment of weapons on the invasion barges (let alone the escorts; the Germans had modern destroyers and S-boats). And finally, Royal Navy success rates at attacking other German convoys during 1940 and 1941 were not great. Even the most aggressive destroyer leaders usually failed to kill more than one or two ships in any given convoy. In particular, the Royal Navy's failures north of Crete in 1941 fighting against lone Italian escorts were particularly embarrassing. German casualties during the invasion would most likely be inflicted by mines, not by the Royal Navy's surface assets.

Like the RAF, the Royal Navy would be better poised to fight once the Germans landed, but that fight would be a struggle of attrition with no clear and easy victor. The Luftwaffe would be likely to make things extremely dangerous for anything other than British (and Dutch) submarines.

It would be up to the British Army to fight the Germans, and although there were slightly over a million Commonwealth soldiers on the island during the summer and fall of 1940 they were mostly support troops or AA crew. The Territorials existed but were of highly dubious quality in actual combat, and were half-trained at best. Less than two hundred thousand trained infantry, tankers, and artillerymen actually defended Great Britain, and as mentioned before those that were defending the island were poorly deployed. Even in important sectors, the British deployed companies where they would be engaging regiments, in poorly sited fortifications (some of which dated to the Napoleonic Wars) whose positions were known to the Luftwaffe. Artillery support was sparse and communications were by wire, not radio. AT defenses were almost nonexistent and were husbanded into "anti-tank islands" inland, while AP mines were nonexistent (yes, the British Army had no AP mines in 1940) and were "replaced" by Mushroom mines with large amounts of explosive that killed British soldiers and civilians alike and were liable to be swept into the sea or set off by sympathetic explosions from Luftwaffe bombing runs. These were far more laughable countermeasures than the mocked Atlantic Wall (or the unfairly-maligned German efforts to scrape together an invasion fleet), and much less likely to stop an invasion.

So what of the inevitable counterattack? Alan Brooke, after assuming command over Britain's seaward defenses in July 1940, viewed most of the commanders in both the regular and Territorial forces as unfit for service and did his best to weed them out as soon as he could. "As soon as he could" was, as it turned out, not very quickly, because Churchill's penchant of mounting overseas expeditions meant that many of the best commanders went elsewhere. Furthermore, British tactical doctrine remained deficient and technical capabilities were generally poor. It took until late 1942 to work out these problems in the Western Desert; in September 1940 Britain's most recent military experience of Germans was getting utterly trounced on the Continent three times (once in Norway, twice in France). And it's worth comparing British ability to counterattack to that of the vaunted Germans, who historically had difficulty organizing large-scale armored counterattacks against amphibious assaults in both Italy and France. Britain had never even fought an entire armored division together by fall 1940. Infantry divisions were significantly less mobile and under-supplied with motor vehicles, not much better than the infamous "static" divisions the Germans put in the Atlantic Wall. Why anyone would expect the British response to an amphibious invasion to be better than the German one is beyond me.

The issue almost certainly would've come down to attrition, Guadalcanal writ large. Germany could get to Britain but lacked the kind of overwhelming power that allowed the Allies of 1944 to land multiple armored divisions in a protected beachhead. Britain faced inferior numbers but possessed few viable offensive military assets not already in Egypt. Further attrition in southern England would seriously threaten control over the Empire. Either way, it would've been a roll of the iron dice - not a slam dunk for Blighty. And as possible as it is to imagine the Nazis going home in a prisoner exchange, it's equally possible to imagine the brittle British collapsing and opening the way to London.
Could you elaborate? I've read it on this forum often, and by posters I generally respect, that it was a pretty uncontroversial statement that Stalin and the Red Amy were planning a general offensive into central/western Europe in the mid to late 40s.
It's speculation. There are plenty of historians willing to indulge in that speculation who believed that Stalin also considered the USSR and Nazi Germany to be fundamentally incompatible and viewed the 1939 agreement as a truce to clear the decks for the real war. But the simple fact is that we have no evidence one way or another about what Stalin planned to do. There are no offensive war plans for the RKKA that predate June 1941, apart from the one that as mentioned clearly described a last-ditch attack to weaken a Nazi invasion. The RKKA was only in a state of partial mobilization.

Now, these things are not conclusive evidence that Stalin didn't want to attack. Far from it. He might very well have planned to attack Nazi Germany, either before the Soviet Union was fully ready or after a period of adequate preparation. But we don't have hard evidence that he did, and while it's perfectly reasonable to hold the opinion it remains, ultimately, one that is difficult to substantiate.

The reason I connect that to the Icebreaker thesis is that most of the alleged evidence in favor of Stalin preparing a grand offensive into Europe in 1941 is either circumstantial, wrong, or both, and most historians agree on this. But most of the evidence about 1942 or 1943 is actually pretty vaporous too.
 
Wow, thanks Dachs!
 
Long ago on a thread about sealion here I wondered whether it would have been possible for the germans to cut some deal with Vichy France to use its fleet. That was something the british feared, and the attack on Dakar was not entirely pointless. The political difficulty was that many in France had no illusions about Germany (hence ultimately the scuttling of the fleet). The practical problem was that getting the french (and italian) fleets to the Atlantic required going past Gibraltar. But if a lot of stars aligned it would have been possible for the british to be hard pressed on the sea.
The germans were simply not trusted by their allies. Franco was unwilling to throw his lot with them and Mussolini, despite depending on german backing for his disastrous wars, did not trust them either. I don't thing that the political problems could have been solved by Germany. Not the historical Nazi Germany at least.
 
one must always factor in the idea that RAF , on its hardest days , kept "half" of its fighting power in Scotland , providing a "reserve" for rainy days . The troubles the British fliers were being corrected by the constant hammering they received from the Germans tactics wise , High Octane fuels whereby any Spitfire became almost untouchable as long its pilot was not asleep and the fact that half of them were intentionally kept out of harm . Despite all the controversy about it when the Brits finally marshalled their massive numbers of planes into the fight as on the 15th of September it was a bold statement and extremely destructive in the minds of German fliers who were led to believe Engeland was down to its last 50 Spits . A paratroper raid possible , a paratrooper bridgehead even less so , with lesser possibility of a landing but the entire was untenable , short of a tech lead the Germans didn't have at the time .
 
That's a ridiculous description.

The British defense of the home islands was deeply flawed in and of itself and susceptible to numerous vulnerabilities. Edmund Ironside dispersed his forces dangerously (to the point that he even deployed troops in the West Country to guard against a phantom invasion from Ireland) and only held the coast itself with a thin outpost line due to manpower deficiencies. Defense was designed to be passive and involve withdrawal from phase line to phase line. Ironside did not even create a general reserve. Those dispositions were changed after July 1940, but only slowly, so that maldeployment persisted well into 1941. Even when the British started to focus on likely targets and collect reserves, they picked the wrong ones. Alan Brooke decided that the Germans were most likely to target East Anglia because it was good tank country, even though virtually all of the Wehrmacht's actual planning emphasized a Channel crossing to the southern English coast. Most reconnaissance assets were over the North Sea, meaning that the British were most likely to detect the German invasion as many as six hours after it actually left harbor. Much like the oft-mocked German defenders of Western Europe in 1944, the British of 1940 and 1941 made an awful lot of mistakes in preparing for a German invasion.

Britain was indeed amassing impressive resources backed by a vast overseas support network. But those resources were in turn cavalierly dissipated on the trivia generated by that vast overseas support network. Britain sent valuable planes and troops to North Africa, West Africa, the Middle East, India, and Singapore even in the dark days of summer and fall 1940. This was not because Great Britain itself was well protected. It was in spite of Great Britain's dangerous vulnerability. At the very moment when the RAF was reeling from Luftwaffe attacks and warning orders were going out to prepare for a German invasion in September 1940, the Royal Navy was sending 4,200 Royal Marines, two battleships, five cruisers, and twelve destroyers to Dakar to fight Vichy France for no obvious strategic reason at all. The British victory in Operation COMPASS in December was quite impressive, but victory in Cyrenaica over the Italians was purchased at the price of the 2nd and 7th Royal Tank Regiments and 3rd Hussars, dispatched from Great Britain in August. More of Churchill's pet projects consumed resources during these crucial months, like inaccurate "Z-battery" rockets, trench-busting "Nellie" vehicles, and "Beaverette" armored cars. The "Nellie" in particular, officially called "Cultivator No. 6", was a massive 130-ton vehicle with no weapons and paper-thin armor designed to circumvent fortifications from World War I. It was, as Robert Forczyk says, every bit as ridiculous as the infamous Maus tank and its development continued well after there was obviously no point in making it at all. This dispersal of resources meant that at the sharp end of a battle for the Channel and the south coast of England, the British would have been quite a bit weaker than their production numbers might have called for. Hell, even their manpower was poorly distributed. While the regular forces of the British Army languished with low replacement levels for virtually the entire war, large numbers - perhaps as many as half a million! - of teenagers and men in their twenties stayed in the useless Home Guard formations.

While the RAF possessed a solid core of fighter aircraft and reasonably competent level bombers, neither asset would be particularly useful against an incoming invasion fleet. British close air support and dive bombing units were both small and poorly armed, and very vulnerable to air interception. They lacked the capability to mount a sustained and well-coordinated fight against an invasion fleet in the Channel. The panic response to the "Channel Dash" in 1942 exposed the weak state of British air and sea defenses there for what they really were: no German warships were sunk and a negligible amount of crewmen were killed against disproportionate British losses in airframes and pilots. Against an invasion fleet, the British would have had little room for embarrassment. And finally, while the RAF's Fighter Command was very good at defensive GCI radar intercept missions in daylight, it took frightening losses all the same. While Fighter Command's available airframe and pilot numbers grew during the Battle of Britain, that was largely due to cutting the number of hours required to qualify pilots and paring Fighter Command's actual mission down to, essentially, GCI and nothing else. Now, once the invasion was already underway and German forces were already on English soil, the RAF would be much better positioned to fight - but only if the British avoided hurling the kitchen sink at the Germans during the actual invasion as a panic move. There is no particular reason to have any overwhelming amount of confidence in the British military of 1940 to avoid panic.

The Royal Navy was also not well deployed to fight the Germans in the Channel for the very good reason that the Royal Navy's leaders thought that the Channel was a potential death trap for capital ships. Charles Forbes had only five capital ships in home waters in September 1940 and only one, HMS Revenge, was on the south coast of England (and only then after Churchill gave him a direct order to deploy it to Portsmouth). It was backstopped by seven light cruisers and thirty-eight destroyers and destroyer escorts. Most of the vessels available for Channel service were Great War vintage or older. They would not have deployed against the five invasion fleets en masse but rather attacked in waves to avoid fratricide at night; based on response times from invasion threats, they were only likely to be able to even engage two out of five invasion fleets. The Germans had extensive minefields to cover their flanks, which would further slow the British response. The British lacked surface radar on the Channel ships, meaning that their hit probability was quite low. The barges were shallow-draft, which some historians have argued would mean that they could just be swamped by bow waves from the destroyers, but closing to that range would've been extraordinarily dangerous against the defensive assortment of weapons on the invasion barges (let alone the escorts; the Germans had modern destroyers and S-boats). And finally, Royal Navy success rates at attacking other German convoys during 1940 and 1941 were not great. Even the most aggressive destroyer leaders usually failed to kill more than one or two ships in any given convoy. In particular, the Royal Navy's failures north of Crete in 1941 fighting against lone Italian escorts were particularly embarrassing. German casualties during the invasion would most likely be inflicted by mines, not by the Royal Navy's surface assets.

Like the RAF, the Royal Navy would be better poised to fight once the Germans landed, but that fight would be a struggle of attrition with no clear and easy victor. The Luftwaffe would be likely to make things extremely dangerous for anything other than British (and Dutch) submarines.

It would be up to the British Army to fight the Germans, and although there were slightly over a million Commonwealth soldiers on the island during the summer and fall of 1940 they were mostly support troops or AA crew. The Territorials existed but were of highly dubious quality in actual combat, and were half-trained at best. Less than two hundred thousand trained infantry, tankers, and artillerymen actually defended Great Britain, and as mentioned before those that were defending the island were poorly deployed. Even in important sectors, the British deployed companies where they would be engaging regiments, in poorly sited fortifications (some of which dated to the Napoleonic Wars) whose positions were known to the Luftwaffe. Artillery support was sparse and communications were by wire, not radio. AT defenses were almost nonexistent and were husbanded into "anti-tank islands" inland, while AP mines were nonexistent (yes, the British Army had no AP mines in 1940) and were "replaced" by Mushroom mines with large amounts of explosive that killed British soldiers and civilians alike and were liable to be swept into the sea or set off by sympathetic explosions from Luftwaffe bombing runs. These were far more laughable countermeasures than the mocked Atlantic Wall (or the unfairly-maligned German efforts to scrape together an invasion fleet), and much less likely to stop an invasion.

So what of the inevitable counterattack? Alan Brooke, after assuming command over Britain's seaward defenses in July 1940, viewed most of the commanders in both the regular and Territorial forces as unfit for service and did his best to weed them out as soon as he could. "As soon as he could" was, as it turned out, not very quickly, because Churchill's penchant of mounting overseas expeditions meant that many of the best commanders went elsewhere. Furthermore, British tactical doctrine remained deficient and technical capabilities were generally poor. It took until late 1942 to work out these problems in the Western Desert; in September 1940 Britain's most recent military experience of Germans was getting utterly trounced on the Continent three times (once in Norway, twice in France). And it's worth comparing British ability to counterattack to that of the vaunted Germans, who historically had difficulty organizing large-scale armored counterattacks against amphibious assaults in both Italy and France. Britain had never even fought an entire armored division together by fall 1940. Infantry divisions were significantly less mobile and under-supplied with motor vehicles, not much better than the infamous "static" divisions the Germans put in the Atlantic Wall. Why anyone would expect the British response to an amphibious invasion to be better than the German one is beyond me.

The issue almost certainly would've come down to attrition, Guadalcanal writ large. Germany could get to Britain but lacked the kind of overwhelming power that allowed the Allies of 1944 to land multiple armored divisions in a protected beachhead. Britain faced inferior numbers but possessed few viable offensive military assets not already in Egypt. Further attrition in southern England would seriously threaten control over the Empire. Either way, it would've been a roll of the iron dice - not a slam dunk for Blighty. And as possible as it is to imagine the Nazis going home in a prisoner exchange, it's equally possible to imagine the brittle British collapsing and opening the way to London.

It's speculation. There are plenty of historians willing to indulge in that speculation who believed that Stalin also considered the USSR and Nazi Germany to be fundamentally incompatible and viewed the 1939 agreement as a truce to clear the decks for the real war. But the simple fact is that we have no evidence one way or another about what Stalin planned to do. There are no offensive war plans for the RKKA that predate June 1941, apart from the one that as mentioned clearly described a last-ditch attack to weaken a Nazi invasion. The RKKA was only in a state of partial mobilization.

Now, these things are not conclusive evidence that Stalin didn't want to attack. Far from it. He might very well have planned to attack Nazi Germany, either before the Soviet Union was fully ready or after a period of adequate preparation. But we don't have hard evidence that he did, and while it's perfectly reasonable to hold the opinion it remains, ultimately, one that is difficult to substantiate.

The reason I connect that to the Icebreaker thesis is that most of the alleged evidence in favor of Stalin preparing a grand offensive into Europe in 1941 is either circumstantial, wrong, or both, and most historians agree on this. But most of the evidence about 1942 or 1943 is actually pretty vaporous too.

Looking into this, and stuff such as the AF D3 and Siebel Ferry, does up the German capability. Whether or not it would had been enough remains to be seen, but the field does seem more level.
 
“The Soviet Union could have defeated the European axis powers singlehandedly with no help from other allied nations.”

True or Russian propaganda ?
 
“The Soviet Union could have defeated the European axis powers singlehandedly with no help from other allied nations.”

True or Russian propaganda ?

I want to say leaning towards Propaganda, because if the Allies aren't helping the USSR, the whole situation has changed; and Stalin can throw as many people he wants to the front but without American trucks, steel, planes, ships, or the like, he's going to have a hard time and the line might stop by becoming a weird mish-mash of the Western and Eastern fronts of the last war.

Especially if the Allies are attacking the USSR for Finland....
 
“The Soviet Union could have defeated the European axis powers singlehandedly with no help from other allied nations.”

True or Russian propaganda ?
Depends what is meant by 'no help' but the statement is largely false. Without the British naval blockade the Nazis could probably have kept on butchering their way across Europe for several decades.
 
Why was racism and ethnic hostility more prevalent in European settler nations than in their parent countries? I mean, obviously there was slavery and expansionism, but neither of those things were very relevant in the twentieth century. You'd think that a roomy, underpopulated country with lots of economic low-hanging fruit would be more easygoing about race than one with established institutions, traditions, locuses of power, and massive colonial populations to keep under its heel. America was clearly much more religiously tolerant (with the Jews probably being the foremost example of this, in both the Union and Confederacy), and right now it seems to be able to integrate foreigners much more easily than Europe is, for the reasons you'd expect.
 
“The Soviet Union could have defeated the European axis powers singlehandedly with no help from other allied nations.”

True or Russian propaganda ?
Propaganda, whether Russian or otherwise. Just as silly as the Americans or British stating the same.

@Imaus and @Ajidica covered a bunch of good stuff. American and British contributions to Soviet infrastructure and supply were crucial, especially beginning in 1943.

But one thing not mentioned was air superiority. Up to the large-scale introduction of American airpower in the war in 1943, the Luftwaffe could create air superiority at any point of the (Eastern) front it chose. VVS could not do the same over German-held territory, and V-PVO could not stop a German maximum effort offensive air campaign. Numerical superiority still allowed Soviet fliers to maintain a constant presence over much of the front until the Germans showed up, at which point losses mounted and the Germans usually achieved air superiority. All that changed in late 1942 and early 1943. Allied aerial attacks on Germany forced the Luftwaffe to prioritize air defense over Germany. At Kursk, the depleted Luftwaffe had a very difficult time affecting the battlefield tactically, which was one of the reasons that the Red Army was able to stop the Germans in their tracks. While this was partially due to improvements in Russian pilot training and tactics, those were very slight compared to the boost of "not having to fight nearly as many Germans". They also benefited from Western Allied attacks on German avgas production, which reduced the technical capabilities of those German air units that did stay in the East. German losses continued to mount, and after the "Big Week" campaign of 1944 the Luftwaffe effectively disappeared from existence.

No army in the Second World War ever managed to successfully conduct an offensive under enemy air superiority. It was not possible. If the Luftwaffe were able to deploy the balance of its forces in the East - no Mediterranean commitment, no Western Europe commitment - the USSR would not have had a path to achieving air superiority, perhaps ever. The USSR's deficiency in rail mobility and trucks would arguably not even have mattered, because the tactical conditions for a counteroffensive would not have existed.

An understated aspect of the Great Patriotic War is how Soviet success relied on recapturing the western part of the USSR. Kursk was a crucial battle not because the Germans might have gone on to attack Moscow again - pure silliness - but because a Soviet failure to reconquer Ukraine and Belorussia would have deprived the Red Army of the manpower it desperately needed to refill its ranks. Casualties had consequences, and the USSR's manpower reserves were not infinite. Between November 1942 (beginning of the Stalingrad counteroffensives) and July 1943 (Kursk), the Red Army's overall manpower declined. The high casualty rate incurred by pushing the Germans back was not sustainable unless the western USSR, which held a vast trove of farmland and population, were recaptured. KUTUZOV and POLKOVODETS RUMIANTSEV had to succeed. That they did was a testament to the improvement in the quality of the Red Army from top to bottom, but also a testament to the aid of the USSR's allies, however indirect that aid sometimes was.
Why was racism and ethnic hostility more prevalent in European settler nations than in their parent countries? I mean, obviously there was slavery and expansionism, but neither of those things were very relevant in the twentieth century. You'd think that a roomy, underpopulated country with lots of economic low-hanging fruit would be more easygoing about race than one with established institutions, traditions, locuses of power, and massive colonial populations to keep under its heel. America was clearly much more religiously tolerant (with the Jews probably being the foremost example of this, in both the Union and Confederacy), and right now it seems to be able to integrate foreigners much more easily than Europe is, for the reasons you'd expect.
What reasons would you expect?
 
Propaganda, whether Russian or otherwise. Just as silly as the Americans or British stating the same.
I remember a while back where was a discussion on this this topic, involving you and Lord Baal I think, where he argued that as long as the British Commonwealth was able to maintain the naval blockade of continental Europe, eventually the Nazis and Italy would have eventually starved themselves out. Europe, under blockade, was incapable of producing enough food to feed itself. Food imported from the Soviet Union was only going to last as long as the Nazis could keep paying them, and that line of credit was just about maxed out mid 1941. The American and Soviet role was in ended the war sooner than it would have ended and ensured that Britain and Europe were only partially bombed out wrecks rather than starving, completely, bombed out wrecks. Is that a half-decent argument, or have I completely misremembered things?

Also, what were some of the reasons the Soviets never really got the hang of fighting the Luftwaffe? It seems a pretty big deficiency given the general improvement the rest of the Red Army saw during the war.
 
I remember a while back where was a discussion on this this topic, involving you and Lord Baal I think, where he argued that as long as the British Commonwealth was able to maintain the naval blockade of continental Europe, eventually the Nazis and Italy would have eventually starved themselves out. Europe, under blockade, was incapable of producing enough food to feed itself. Food imported from the Soviet Union was only going to last as long as the Nazis could keep paying them, and that line of credit was just about maxed out mid 1941. The American and Soviet role was in ended the war sooner than it would have ended and ensured that Britain and Europe were only partially bombed out wrecks rather than starving, completely, bombed out wrecks. Is that a half-decent argument, or have I completely misremembered things?
I mean, it's a good theory, but "as long as the Commonwealth was able to maintain the blockade" might not have been particularly long, especially if the Germans continued their preparations to invade Britain. But yes, economically the Nazi Grossraum of 1940-41 was having severe trouble with its food and energy supplies and the best prospect for ameliorating the problem was outright conquest in the USSR.
Also, what were some of the reasons the Soviets never really got the hang of fighting the Luftwaffe? It seems a pretty big deficiency given the general improvement the rest of the Red Army saw during the war.
The biggest one was pilot training. New Soviet pilots didn't have equal training hours to new German pilots until 1944, by which time the Luftwaffe had already disappeared from Eastern Europe. And the Luftwaffe's Experten remained difficult to kill right up to the end of the war, although they had basically no impact on the overall course of the fighting after 1943.

VVS was also not organized particularly well. It was adequate to the purpose of massing aircraft and directing them to a location, but extensive coordination was never its forte. Soviet soldiers never got the sort of connection with their air support that Germans got with their Luftwaffe liaisons or that the Americans got with the tactical air force concept and "armored column cover".

Soviet airpower was adequate for the task that actually faced it from 1943 to 1945. It existed, it was numerous, it had air superiority by default, and it could provide direct ground support in a variety of ways.
 
What reasons would you expect?

Much less demand to 'fit in' to the country's already existing institutions (it's much easier to be both a Pakistani and an American than it is to be a Pakistani and a Frenchman).
 
Much less demand to 'fit in' to the country's already existing institutions (it's much easier to be both a Pakistani and an American than it is to be a Pakistani and a Frenchman).
The great majority of Pakistanis would have been legally barred from obtaining American citizenship until 1946.
 
Thought you'd be interested in the subject matter, at least.
 
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