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History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VIII

Discussion in 'World History' started by Flying Pig, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    I feel like a lot of people in this thread are working with a pretty confused understanding of the word "history". It doesn't describe what actually happened. That's just the past. History is the process of recording the past, of working out narratives and saying to an audience "this is what happened". This is something that we would expect to change over time, and we don't need to sacrifice the view that modern standards are more rigorous, produce more accurate work, and are just generally better, to allow that older work that doesn't live up to those standards is still "history".
     
  2. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    Yeah, that's uh, kinda my point.

    Although it should be noted, that this reduction of the historical discipline to "sifting the fact from the mythology" is itself a very old view of history. Like, that's an arch-Rankian characterization of the discipline, and to my knowledge, hasn't really been a part of rigorous historical work since at least the 1980s. Like what does "sifting fact from mythology" have to do with, say, Historical Memory or Material Culture or Indexicality?
     
  3. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    There are still many things that can be known with a high degree of reliability, if measured. Presenting conjecture about those things as fact is "lying".
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    It's strange to me that you're comfortable with a definition of "lying" that encompasses statements made with undue confidence, but not with a definition of "history" that includes anyone working before Leopold von Ranke.
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    When Yuan Shi-kai declared himself emperor in 1916, did he declare a new dynasty?

    I can't seem to find anything that gives a name, but given that, in Chinese history, declaring a new dynasty was so bound up in somebody from outside of the imperial clan assuming the throne that they're almost one and the same action, not declaring a dynasty seems itself a very deliberate act- but I also can't find anything to confirm that.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  6. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    That's a good one. I've been wondering about that myself quite a bit.
     
  7. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Although Yuan wanted to make China back into a monarchy with an inherited throne, and although he gave his reign an era name (Hongxian), he did not really pick out a dynasty name. Where other emperors might have referred to the Empire of the Great Qing (or Ming, etc.), his communications referred to the Chinese Empire and to himself as the Great Emperor.

    It's possible to make too much of this. Yuan's Empire lasted less than three months. His attempt to change the Republic into an Empire proceeded by stages: the slow end of party politics in 1913-14, the ostentatious imperial sacrifices carried out by him as President in 1914, the imperial trial balloon in 1915, and the empire of 1916. Perhaps he would have declared a formal name to his dynasty after testing the waters. Didn't turn out that way.
     
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  8. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish 49ers 2019

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    Is the 4th of July mourned in Britain? Considering it's a day in which they lost a vast amount of their empire?
     
  9. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    I suppose, then, that January 27 is also a day mourned in the US, seeing as it is the day the US certified its greatest humiliation before of since.
     
  10. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish 49ers 2019

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    Fair enough. I'm not sure what happened that day though (or what year), please educate me.
     
  11. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    The end of the Vietnam War? The Apollo 1 fire?

    As for 4th July, no, nothing happens. Sorry to disappoint you.
     
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  12. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    If Britons were in the habit of marking the occasion, surely it would be October 19th, when Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown?

    As it is, they're not. Most Britons didn't really have a sense of "the empire" until the nineteenth century, by which time the American colonies were long gone. If they feel like mourning the loss of their empire, then Indian independence would be the defining moment.
     
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  13. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish 49ers 2019

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    Based on what I've read there were a TON of German soldiers surrendering/becoming POWs on Dday. Far more than the actual casualties. Is there a reason for this?
     
  14. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I'd hazard a guess that (a) they thought that being a US/UK POW was safer than fighting or (b) they didn't want be stationed on the Eastern Front and fall into Russian hands.
     
  15. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    To add to what the others have said, the kind of people in Britain who think losing the empire was a bad thing tend to be the kind of people who absolutely love the US exactly as it is.
     
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  16. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Still haven't figured out a Jan 27th explanation.
     
  17. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    It's the day the Paris Peace Accords were signed.
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    A lot of troops stationed in Normandy were not what you'd call ideological. A lot of them were recent conscripts, including older men who had previously been exempted, or previously-wounded men released back to active service, and a significant minority of them were re-conscripted Soviet POWs. In the face of an unexpected, large-scale invasion and the absence of a strong immediate response from their own command, it's not a surprised that a lot of them decided dying for the Fatherland (let alone somebody else's) wasn't at the top of their to-do list.
     
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  19. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish 49ers 2019

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    Then it’s surprising they put up much of a fight at all. Considering the attack was a successful surprise, I guess that was what all but guaranteed that it would work.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  20. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish 49ers 2019

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    I'd rather morn the day Trump refused to sign a much more recent Paris agreement.
     

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