History Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread VIII

ı would like to say "military non-solution" was meant as a very long period of action that would have sapped the resources of the British Empire , decades of a guerilla war style . Even if massacre as a population control was much more acceptable back then .

as for the Spanish connection and suspectability of the "then" Americans to play a Spanish game , ı would surely invoke stuff that the rebellion would indeed end very quickly or some sort of a crusade to be assembled to attack those "Spanish lovers" if they were to fall into such "misguided" paths . British patriotism of Americans show up regularly , like this Monroe doctrine stopping the Spanish really working on South America so that British business interests could fund a continental uprising for profits and stuff .
 
ı would like to say "military non-solution" was meant as a very long period of action that would have sapped the resources of the British Empire , decades of a guerilla war style . Even if massacre as a population control was much more acceptable back then .
It's questionable whether guerrilla war would actually have dislodged the British without political or conventional military pressure being brought to bear elsewhere. Irregular warfare does not tend to be an effective way of achieving a lasting political settlement unless some political or conventional military force is brought to bear against the occupier. Most of the famous guerrilla conflicts of the twentieth century were ultimately won by conventional forces- China, Vietnam- or because political pressure forced the occupying power to withdraw- Ireland, Algeria- rather than because guerrilla activity was sufficient to simply collapse the military effectiveness of the occupier. While political pressure could have forced British concessions in North America, they would have stopped well short of independence, which even among British opponents of the war was regarded as a dangerous gamble. An independent United States of America- even one nominally under British sovereignty, a "Dominion of America"- was only ever going to be on the cards if the British military was broken in North America.

I'd also quibble the acceptability of massacres- one of the major events leading into the Revolutionary War was the Boston Massacre, which was so controversial that the British were forced to allow their own soldiers to placed on trial in a civilian, colonial court- and to allow that most of them were convicted. It was different if the victims were imagined to be racial inferiors- Indian or, y'know, Irish- but the killing of British subjects by British soldiers was widely agreed to be beyond the pale. Massacres of civilians did occur during the Revolutionary War, but almost all instances were carried by American irregular forces, whether Patriot or Loyalist, and represents the particularly vicious nature of the civil war in the more remotes parts of British North America, rather than the widespread acceptance of civilian massacres as a tool of public order.

as for the Spanish connection and suspectability of the "then" Americans to play a Spanish game , ı would surely invoke stuff that the rebellion would indeed end very quickly or some sort of a crusade to be assembled to attack those "Spanish lovers" if they were to fall into such "misguided" paths . British patriotism of Americans show up regularly , like this Monroe doctrine stopping the Spanish really working on South America so that British business interests could fund a continental uprising for profits and stuff .
The Americans had no particular animosity towards the Spanish, moreso that than they did foreigners generally. Their traditional enemies were the French, and the Continental Congress actively sought French support during the Revolutionary War, so even that did not prove to be an insurmountable grudge. Moreover, hostility towards the French and Spanish was very generally framed in the terms of hostility to Catholicism and to absolute monarchy, but it would very difficult to present Calvinist republics as somehow more closely-situated to Roman despotism than the royalist and high church Episcopalian government in London. It would be very hard to frame any such war as a "crusade", to disguise its true nature as the pacification of rebellious border provinces, and consequently very difficult to rally public support, in America or Britain, for what would be an arduous and expensive campaign of little obvious commercial or strategic value.

Moreover, there is the simple how of it. The British had already struggled to impose their authority over the Appalachians before the Revolutionary War; the tensions that arose from this were one of the major factors leading into the war. The last British military presence in the region was in what's now Detroit, far from the centre of settlements along the Ohio and Tenseness rivers. The important strategic positions in the settled region were either controlled by American rebels, or by Indians nations who were at best aligned with the British. Even if the British could have carried out expeditions against these positions, it's unlikely that they would have, or could have, spared the men and resources to hold the surrounding territory in any enduring way. Even when the British took and held Fort Pitt during the French & Indian War, the assumption was that it would serve as a deterrent against the Indian tribes in what's now Ohio, and offer some measure of control and security for the settlers in Western Pennsylvania, not that it could be used to projected power down the length of the Ohio Valley. When the rebels you are setting out to crush live in a series of fortified villages scattered across broken and forested landscape, where do you land the sledgehammer blow of a major conventional military expedition?

It's more likely that you would see a number of smaller expeditions, with contained goals- occupying specific points, retaliating against specific offences- with at most the hope of convincing the Overmountain secessionists to voluntary return to the imperial fold.
 
I would of course totally agree that any guerilla war would require a conventional assault by the rebels ; even if ı wasn't even born for quite a half of it , the North Vietnamese Army breaking into the palace in Saigon was not clad in black pajamas and straw hats and very few bicycles in view . As for the specific situation on the ground , ı won't even claim that ı could argue ... The point being ı would totally be sidetracked into an irrelevant discussion of how England would be like becoming Muslim during Elizabeth and that was so gross and that was by them Brits were pushing the Muscovy into action with some gift to some Tsar in like1595 , a carving depicting him killing the Sultan at the very gates of Moscow ...

this will get me into trouble because currently it is treason to talk of how the Russian Baltic fleet sailed across with British help and the Ottoman cabinet / Divan rejected their presence in the Aegean , because no Russian ships were seen crossing the Bosphorus ... More advanced varieties of this has Venetian diplomatic officials called in to explain why they let the Russians in through some Italian rivers ...

for the current range of imbeciles who run the world would have a thing about this and how the Ottomans then suddenly had a century , you know , like corona III ...
 
I was playing some Shogun Total War (free on Steam the next few days!) and found myself wondering why shields weren't more common in Japanese warfare given how prevalent the bow was. I did some rooting around online and most answers seemed to be some variation of "Japanese warriors seemed to favor long spears and polearms which prevented the use of a shield"; an answer that seems a bit lacking.
Conversely, were missile weapons more prevalent in Japan than in Europe? Shields became less common in Europe as armor became better/cheaper, and more value was placed on weapon length than protection. Was a similar dynamic at play in Japan?
 
I was playing some Shogun Total War (free on Steam the next few days!) and found myself wondering why shields weren't more common in Japanese warfare given how prevalent the bow was. I did some rooting around online and most answers seemed to be some variation of "Japanese warriors seemed to favor long spears and polearms which prevented the use of a shield"; an answer that seems a bit lacking.
Conversely, were missile weapons more prevalent in Japan than in Europe? Shields became less common in Europe as armor became better/cheaper, and more value was placed on weapon length than protection. Was a similar dynamic at play in Japan?

As Epimetheus pointed out, the shields were basically integrated into the armor. The big shoulder pads - those are basically vestigal shields.

All a shield is - is extra armor. It could be used as a weapon or even a tool, sure, but it's just more armor you dangle on your arm.

The prevalence of projectile weapons does account for it in part as well.
 
What other nations than Japan tried to 'modernize' or succeeded?

Muhammed Ali apparently tried to make a modern army and navy for the time. Same with Samori Ture of Wassoulou. The Sikh Khalsa Army? The Qing had their Beiyang and New Army. Korea as well with the Gabo and Gwangmu Reforms. Young Turks in the Ottoman Empire?

And a lot of these are just in the realm of military tactics; not much civics wise like Japan....
 
What other nations than Japan tried to 'modernize' or succeeded?

Muhammed Ali apparently tried to make a modern army and navy for the time. Same with Samori Ture of Wassoulou. The Sikh Khalsa Army? The Qing had their Beiyang and New Army. Korea as well with the Gabo and Gwangmu Reforms. Young Turks in the Ottoman Empire?

And a lot of these are just in the realm of military tactics; not much civics wise like Japan....

Modernise... what yardstick to measure and then compare ?
How big a scope of disciplines-knowledge fields and at what granular size ?

If you take GDP per capita as yardstick, in effect the amount of layers of economical sectors added, there is some research comparing countries-areas over time, and when you see a rather sudden increase compared to thers, you can investigate the causes.

You can also take urbanisation development over time and look at sudden increases over periods of several decades.

Or other indicators like:
* Amount of printing presses, amount of new books, degree of alphabetisation.
* In current time the speed of development of ICT and everything related (digitalisation as similar process as alphabetisation). How many public services are digitalised.
* or the invention of the balance sheet in financial accounting as improvement of just cash in, cash out accounting per event (the Italian bookkeeping invented in late Medieval enabling Profit & Loss accounting for a company as a whole)
 
It is noted that British observers were reportedly worried at the drill of the Khalsa Army. Pity that with the death of Ranjit Singh succession squabbles, infighting and the loss of all its great European reformers paved the way for British conquest.
 
and one must remember the idea of sweet spots . Japan didn't get much in the way of sabotage , being some unimportant place or whatever when it began , being somewhat rich and being somewhat unified and being quite populous to be a tough nut to crack at once and its imperialist acts had the amazing luck of being against an extremely weak China , then Russia which was yet to be corralled into Entente Cordiale . Much like Civ lll , culture and gold mean nothing when you get invaded , but a strong showing at the F3 button enables you to get a lot in other screens .
 
What other nations than Japan tried to 'modernize' or succeeded?

Muhammed Ali apparently tried to make a modern army and navy for the time. Same with Samori Ture of Wassoulou. The Sikh Khalsa Army? The Qing had their Beiyang and New Army. Korea as well with the Gabo and Gwangmu Reforms. Young Turks in the Ottoman Empire?

And a lot of these are just in the realm of military tactics; not much civics wise like Japan....
A whole bunch tried and succeeded. The Japanese modeled themselves after Germany and Austria who themselves were deliberately “modernizing”.
 
Why didn't any of the native Americans (especially those with sophisticated civilizations like the Aztecs and Mayans) ever sea travel to reach Europe first? If the answer is "they didn't develop the shipbuilding technology" then why didn't they?
 
there was just no need to develop long-distance ocean shipping, plus atlantic winds and currents tend to flow from east to west, which would've made things much harder for would-be indigenous long-distance sailors
 
Why didn't any of the native Americans (especially those with sophisticated civilizations like the Aztecs and Mayans) ever sea travel to reach Europe first? If the answer is "they didn't develop the shipbuilding technology" then why didn't they?



People develop the technology that they think will be of use to them. Native Americans had ships and boats for coastal trade, river travel, island hopping and fishing. But they had no reason to think there was places far over the horizon to travel to, so why figure out how to go there? Recall that Columbus wasn't looking for the Americas, he was looking for China, and discovered the Americas by accident. But he knew at the time that China existed. He just failed to understand how far away it really was by ship sailing west from Spain. Had there been nothing between Spain and China, Columbus and the men with him would have died, and no one would have ever known their fate.

The Indians, where would they have thought to go to? They had no knowledge of places over the sea, as Columbus did. So why try to go to a place they didn't even have a guess existed?
 
At a bare minimum, wouldn't you be curious at some point?
 
At a bare minimum, wouldn't you be curious at some point?
Would you be willing to be strapped into a rocket and shot out into deep space, because of curiosity of what might be out there?
 
People develop the technology that they think will be of use to them. Native Americans had ships and boats for coastal trade, river travel, island hopping and fishing. But they had no reason to think there was places far over the horizon to travel to, so why figure out how to go there? Recall that Columbus wasn't looking for the Americas, he was looking for China, and discovered the Americas by accident. But he knew at the time that China existed. He just failed to understand how far away it really was by ship sailing west from Spain. Had there been nothing between Spain and China, Columbus and the men with him would have died, and no one would have ever known their fate.

The Indians, where would they have thought to go to? They had no knowledge of places over the sea, as Columbus did. So why try to go to a place they didn't even have a guess existed?


I think Columbus was looking for a path to India, in any case, this does not change things too much. He was looking for this because there were two traditional paths, one of them was bassically controlled by Portugal and the other one was no longer safe for Christians due to the fall of Constantinople, which happened few decades before.

Aztecs, Mayans or whoever, did not have this need, or if they had they didn't developt it succesfully
 
Would you be willing to be strapped into a rocket and shot out into deep space, because of curiosity of what might be out there?

That's not a genuine equivalence. We have the Hubble space telescope, etc so we know for a fact we will die with any rocket with today's technology, long before you reach anything that could help you survive. The Native Americans did not know for a fact that they would reach nothing that could help them survive for at least a return trip, so it wasn't a blatantly obvious suicide mission.
 
I'm sure they had some fishing coastal vessels lost to storms and never seen again and were not particularly curious as to how many people they could send in to succumb.
 
Back
Top Bottom