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History Rewritten (Original Thread)

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. Andrewicus

    Andrewicus Imperator

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    Is the Tactical trait's upgrade cost reduction working? In a multiplayer game it didn't appear to be but then I could be underestimating the cost of it. Also a couple CTDs but I didn't save the errors so I'll try to get those for you when/if they happen again.
     
  2. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    What are the news for 0.3 ? :mischief:
     
  3. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    It should be and seems to be for me at least. I'll do some doublechecking though. What era and with which civs were the CTDs happening? I think there is a broken art or button define somewhere that is causing these crashes, probably the same one that Keinpferd reported.

    Well the new Civs for 0.3 are the Berbers and the Tibetans. I've added one last trait, Progressive, and I've done a fair bit of tweaking and fixing of the other traits, especially Spiritual. There's a handful of new leaders and I've added a lot of new unit art, particularly for India, the Turks and a lot of War Elephants all round (thanks to Coffee Junkie!). Fixed several glitches and hunting down this elusive crash.

    I didn't spend enough time testing 0.2 and a few major bugs slipped through so I'm going to be a bit more thorough this time. That's also why I am not going to add many new features to 0.3. Hopefully ready next week sometime.
     
  4. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    Tibetans = nice ! UB ? UU ? Leaders ?

    Berbers = why not ? UB ? UU ? Leaders ? Massinissa ?

    Antic, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial or Modern Berbers ? Specially Chubbils ?
    Do you know that more and more people from Chubbily (Kabylie/Kabyles in French ?) turns into Christianity from Islam ? We have had already civilizations turning Muslims from Christians, but reverse thing ? Should be interesting, isn't it ?

    No bias here, be quiet :goodjob:
     
  5. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Leaders will be Songtsen Gampo and the Dalai Lama (not meant to represent the current one, or even a particular one). UB is the Gompa, UU not decided yet.

    One leader so far, Yaqub al-Mansur of the Berber Almohad empire. I'd like to add more but I haven't found leader art that I'm happy with yet. Massinissia would be good if I can find something suitable. Still deciding the UB and UU.

    Well I'd like the civilization to represent all of those eras. I plan to go through every civ and citylist in a future version and adjust them so that they show the evolution of that civ, rather than a single time period. It really annoys me that China starts with Beijing for example.

    So far with the mod I've not being putting much thought into pedia entries and citylists, often just borrowing them intact from other mods. For me though a huge part of my love of Civ is researching all the history. In a future version I plan to go through all the citylists and pedia entries and rewrite them. The one civ I have done this for so far (though not the leaders yet) is Nubia. Have a look at their citylist/pedia entry to get an idea of what I'm wanting to achieve here.

    For the moment I'm going to focus on getting all the content in that I'm planning and getting it stable and balanced and Windows compatible. Then I shall indulge in history :D


    EDIT: Forgot to mention that I will hopefully have maps with both realistic starting points and random civs (Starting Points by The_J) merged in too.
     
  6. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    Well, about 0.3 (or 0.4), would it be possible to add Canada to this mod? (UU: Mountie. Cavalry. Maybe doesn't obsolete to Heli and instead gains access to a new, unit-specific promotion upon researching Advanced Flight.) (UB: Hockey Rink. Colosseum. Don't know about the benefits.)
     
  7. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I have no plans to add Canada sorry. I have a limited number of slots available for both civs and leaders and I'd prefer to fill them with civilizations that have history at least as far back as Medieval, preferably Ancient times. This is not a slight on Canada at all (my mother is Canadian and I lived there for several years, I love the place), it just doesn't fit with my vision for the mod, especially in terms of unit art. To me the joy of Civ is not to recreate modern nations but rather take all the peoples of old and see how the world ends up different. As an example, what if the Industrial Revolution happened somewhere else and it wasn't Europe that ended up colonizing much of the world?

    For this reason I won't be adding countries like South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Australia or even my own country (New Zealand). The only exceptions are America and the Netherlands, simply because they are part of BTS anyway and it seems pointless to remove them. As it was, these two were very challenging to find unit art for that didn't look ridiculous. All the other Firaxis civs have much longer histories.
     
  8. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    An idea for your mod : decaying of religions... And other things...

    1) I think that a religion could have most chance to disapears as the cities have not temples, monastery of cathedrales types of dedicated buildings...

    2) Is there a possibility to have more than 7 religions, because often, i impeach my civ to have more than one religion, because i think that having three religions in same civ is a joyous mess...

    Religions should be more passive thing, isn't it ?

    3) Why missionary unit type should be not produced automatically each X turns by holy city only ? At different rate for most religions, and religions should be not able to spread without missionary...

    Christian and Muslim Holy Cities could have 1 missionary each 10 turns
    Jewish could have each 20 turns
    Same ideas for others...

    4) None difference between religions in Civ4 other than cosmetic is purely artiificial...

    Why not give to each religion, a particular bonus ? a particular malus ?

    5) Why in real world we have wars between different religions if they was equal ?

    6) If it is too dangerous to make that, you can ignore it, after it is still a game, even if religions are dangerous subjects of speaking... I recognize it, after all in Civ 5 religions are suppressed as parameter ;)
     
  9. Anonilate

    Anonilate Chieftain

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    You should add Pakistan ;D

    They could have a Khalid Tank as the UU and the Unique Building could be Mughal or of the various ethnic groups.

    I just think it's a first world power as far as military goes, so it should be somewhat represented, especially compared with the Berbers and Tibet. Ayub Khan or Pervaiz Musharraf would make a good leader. And you could use most of India's models if you remove the turbans/combine a bit with Arabs and Persians (most Pakistanis have decently fair skin).
     
  10. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Once again Pakistan is a very modern nation, pretty much an offshoot of India. I realize they are a prominent power these days, and that Tibet and the Berbers are not, but both the latter have existed for thousands of years. Pakistan has been around for a mere 63. Both also had empires that were at times far larger than Pakistan too.

    However I do think the region of Eastern Iran/Pakistan/Afghanistan is not represented and probably deserves to be. It's one of those regions that's had so many different peoples ruling it throughout history so it's hard to find a common thread. The Mughals are one possibility, though I currently have Akbar the Great as one of India's leaders, to represent their Medieval period. Harappa, Bactria, Kushan or even a generalized 'Aryan' civilization could possibly work. I'd like to choose something with a reasonable amount of continuity across the eras but I need to learn more about the region.
     
  11. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I would definitely like to do more with Religions, they have a lot of possibilities. Perhaps after I've done what I want to do with wonders and the tech tree I'll look into it.
     
  12. Anonilate

    Anonilate Chieftain

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    It's hard to say, because there has never been a true empire of Pakistan or it's people. The closest thing is Pakistan, though mostly it's just Indian people that have a Muslim religion; however, the art, culture, etc. varies quite a bit from their Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikh/etc. counterparts. I'd agree with you in saying it is an offshoot and relatively young, due to it's Muslim nature, but Afghanistan on the other hand is much older. Though I'm not too sure on continuity of civilizations.

    Harappa was mostly a Buddhist/Hindu(?) civilization that happened to be in Pakistan's borders, I'm not sure whether the people were Aryan or Dravidian, though I have been to the major sites. One thing of note however, Aryan and Dravidian aren't a real peoples such as the Aryans are light skinned and Dravidian's dark skinned... It's mostly a language thing. Aryan languages are the Indo-European ones, mostly spoken in North India in modern times. And the Dravidian the South Indian-like languages which at one point were much more prominent.

    Also, I have a small complaint, though I'm not sure if it's easy to fix, it's mostly visual. Why is Akbar the Great so dark-skinned? A) there are a lot of light skinned Indians, the dark skinned stereotype I don't get, but it's mostly in the South b) Akbar was Monglo/Turko-Persian so technically his skin should be the color of say... Darius or Cyrus.
     
  13. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    My philosophy when it comes to civilizations in Civ is that it's all too easy to think in terms of ethnicity when there are so many other factors in 'national' identity such as language, culture and religion. Especially in the ancient and classical times when the very concept of nationalism was mostly non-existant.

    A good example is that I've represented the Huns as part of the Hungarians by making Attila a Hungarian leader. The Huns and the Magyar were different ethnicities but the Magyar took up the cultural mantle of the Huns and thus I'm happy to consider them the same civilization, much as the Magyar themselves do. Sometimes such identification with earlier civilizations is due to latter period romanticism or revisionist thinking, such as for example the Dutch identification as the Batavii or the Romans with Troy. The Magyar though have identified with the Hun since the time of Arpad and likely before.

    Anyway, I'm rambling, back to the topic of the Pakistan/Afghanistan region! I'd need to research the various civilizations and see what continuity there was culturally. At the moment the the region is represented loosely by its big powerful neighbours, Persia, India and the Turks (once I expand them from just the Ottoman). Once I've redone the citylists for these I'll see if there is enough 'left over' to form a new civ in this region. With a quick survey I see important ancient cities like Taxila, Baktra/Balkh, Peshawar that don't have an absolute connection to these surrounding civilizations; this suggests Kushan as a strong contender. They have definite connections going back to the Soghdians and the Saka. Going forward is much trickier, they were conquered by the Hepthalites and then things get very messy with the introduction of Islam. I'm not sure it's feasible to find continuity all the way through to the Afghans and/or the Pakistani, but atm this is my leading option.

    I'm going to rule out Harappa because while they are a ridiculously fascinating civilization (as old as the Sumerians and Egyptians!) just not enough is known about them and how they are related to later peoples of the region. As someone who's studied linguistics and archaeology I have real issue with modern archaeological site names being used in citylists and of course these are the only names we have for their cities. There is unlikely to be any leader or unit art created for them too.

    Finally, I think some sort of Dravidian/Tamil/Southern Indian civilization would be great. Several mods have the Chola but this was but one empire of these peoples, I'd prefer to have something more all encompassing. As always though, depends on availability of art. There's 1 or 2 leaders I could possibly use but nothing appropriate for units yet.

    I agree his skin should be lighter, but that's the way the leaderhead was made. I'll have a look and see if I can alter the texture. Added to my todo list :)
     
  14. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Since I've been getting lots of questions and requests about civs to be added I thought I should post what I am thinking of in terms of civs to be added. Firstly, my rough criteria for adding a civ:

    • Must be able to have a city list that is mostly different from other civs
    • Ideally have continuity across several eras
    • Must have existed for sizeable period of time
    • Must have interesting leader choices and art (minimum 2, maximum 4)
    • Must have enough unit art available
    • Preferably had significant influence beyond their own borders

    I'm biased towards Ancient and Medieval civilizations because that's my area of interest and study. I don't mind adding later civilizations so long as they have some link back to Medieval times. I'm not at all interested in recreating the world as it is today though; I also won't add any leaders that are still alive or died recently.

    I have no set limit for number of civilization but I do have a limit on number of leaders: 136, including Firaxis leaders. This is because that's how many trait combinations there are with all the traits I've added. Leader art is the main culprit for the slow down of loading time so it's important to have a maximum. Also I'd like to add more content to the civilizations and this gets harder when the number of them keeps increasing!

    So anyway, here are the civs that I'm definitely planning for future versions:

    • Assyria
    • Hatti (Hittites)
    • Phoenicia
    • Swahili

    These are civs that really interest me and I think I have enough leader and unit art to cobble together to make them possible. I could add Poland to that list, there is certainly enough art available. However I want to mull a bit on how to best represent the Slavic and/or Baltic peoples before making a final decision here. Eastern Europe deserves another civ though.


    After those 4 or 5 are in there is possibly still room for a small number of other civs. Here's my thoughts, broken down by region:


    EUROPE:

    While there are many nationalities and ethnicities not represented in Europe yet (Finns, Bulgars, Basques, Minoans, Illyrians, etc) the same can be said for every other region of the world too and Europe already has more civs in game than anywhere else. Room for aforementioned Eastern European civ only.


    AFRICA:

    With the additions of Nubia, Berbers in 0.3 and Swahili eventually I think I've covered Africa really well; a continent that always seems to get a raw deal in history books and games. Mali will be extended to include Ghana and Songhai, becoming the Mande. Remaining possibilities are the Kongo, some sort of Benin/Yoruba civ and at a stretch, Zimbabwe. Not high priorities though.


    WEST ASIA:

    With the additions I've listed above I think the Middle East will be right up with Europe in terms of representation, so probably best to stop at that point. Urartu/Armenia would be neat though, as would Aramea/Syria. One civ I am strongly considering is something representing Saba/Himyar/Yemen/Southern Arabia. This is a fascinating region with a rich history, and quite distinct from Arabia as represented in Civ already.


    CENTRAL ASIA:

    Discussed this in my previous posts, there is a gap that would be good to fill around Pakistan/Afghanistan. It would also be great to have a civ representing all the great Silk Road cities like Turfan, Kashgar, Kokand, etc. Maybe the Uighur? Finally some sort of Scythian/Sarmatian civilization would be neat but I don't like adding purely nomadic civs, simply because the game revolves around cities. Overall this is an region that needs more representation, it's just so hard to do because of its tumultuous history.


    SOUTH ASIA:

    I've added all the major Southeast Asian civs already, except Burma/Mon, Arakan, Champa, Malay/Indonesia/Srivijaya and the Filipinos. I'd consider one of these if the art became available. India could certainly use a Tamil/Dravidian/Chola civ, as mentioned previously. Maybe even Sinhala/Sri Lanka.


    EAST ASIA:

    Probably my weakest area of knowledge. I can't think of anything to add here; Mongolia, China, Korea and Japan seem to cover the region very well already.


    PACIFIC:

    I think a Maori civ would be awesome (biased of course) but I'm happy to leave them incorporated into Polynesia. I'm determined to find or even make a Maori leaderhead though. The Koori (Australian Aboriginals) are a civ that would be fantastic to have. They didn't have cities but like the Native Americans they are the first people of the region so its fair enough in my opinion to overlook this. Unfortunately the only leader art available for them is, to be blunt, pretty terrible.


    AMERICAS:

    The main problem here is that the Aztec and the Inca are both the last empires of their respective regions. I may expand these civs to include more of the peoples that came before them, sort of like I'm going to do with Mali. There's definitely a lot of scope for more civs here but I haven't given it much in depth thought yet. I'm not that interested in adding civs like Chile, Brazil, etc, for reasons I've discussed before.


    Anyway, that's lots of rambling from me ><
     
  15. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    DELETED finally, it was too dangerous...

    Was speaking of "Roma AEterna" a great classic of uchronia, like "Years of Rice and Salt" ;)
     
  16. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    And after you could have an Earth Map with all these civs at choice ?

    You could have period based Earths...

    Like Start 2000 BC, 1000 BC, 500 BC, 100 AD, 500 AD, 1000 AD, 1960 AD, 1984 AD, 2001 AD and 2010 AD, but if you have more appropriate Start xxxx BC/AD, you could too...
     
  17. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I have a bunch of maps coming in 0.3, most of the ones from StartingPoints.
     
  18. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    Nice i would see a Mediterranean map with all new civs from your mod...

    Like placing Berbers near to Carthage, by example...
     
  19. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    Any news here ?
     
  20. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    0.3 is almost done. I'm just doing some testing and trying to get some preliminary Windows support in.

    EDIT: Appears there is a crash related to building art that I need to hunt down too
     

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