Homosexuality and Natural Selection

[blindside]

I would say that we probably do. Consider the estimate that 5% of the world's male population is gay. I think we can also say that about 5% of the world's male population has blue eyes (remember, the trait is nonexistant outside of peoples of European descent and at max 25% of Caucasians have blue eyes).

My sister and mother have/had blue eyes and neither are European or of European descent. If you go to Afghanistan or northern Pakistan, the Pathan people sometimes have blue eyes or blond hair. But I'm being picky.

 

[Cuivienen]

Hmm.... well, that makes sense, I guess. But there are places in the world where there is a high proportion of Blue eyes vs Brown eyes, such as Europe. There are, presumably, no such places for homosexuals, because they've all died out. Does that mean I'm a little bit right?

Not so much. Blue eyes (like all non-brown or black eye colors) are a fairly recent mutation that appeared in European populations within the last ~40,000 years. The trait didn't die out in other regions, it just never appeared. Homosexuality, on the other hand, would have appeared sometime before humans migrated out of Africa meaning that the trait was spread across the globe during the diaspora of early humans.

 

[jonatas]

My sister and mother have/had blue eyes and neither are European or of European descent. If you go to Afghanistan or northern Pakistan, the Pathan people sometimes have blue eyes or blond hair. But I'm being picky.

but those blue eyes are said to come from Alexander the Great's soldiers... or maybe it's just a legend

 

[elfangor801]

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/03/29/gay.fingers/

That was kinda out there

 

[Mise]

Not so much. Blue eyes (like all non-brown or black eye colors) are a fairly recent mutation that appeared in European populations within the last ~40,000 years. The trait didn't die out in other regions, it just never appeared. Homosexuality, on the other hand, would have appeared sometime before humans migrated out of Africa meaning that the trait was spread across the globe during the diaspora of early humans.

(I know that this is now a purely intellectual arguement, given that Mark has said that it's not simply one gene, but it's still interesting nonetheless.)

I don't see how that changes anything. Recent or not, the mutation proliferated in Europe rapidly (which is something that I would intuitively expect based on what I know about r vs D). If the mutation were similar for homosexuality, I would (naively) expect the homosexuality gene to proliferate equally quickly. The fact that it hasn't suggests to me that natural selection was indeed at play in deciding the relative populations of homosexuals vs heterosexuals, i.e. natural selection prevented the homosexuality gene from proliferating as quickly as the blue eye'd gene. (or alelle or phenotype or whatever, you know what I mean.)

Incidentally, my pursuit of this particular debate in no way means that I have ignored the other posts; it's hard to ignore the mother's womb thing when so many of you have posted it. I guess my initial assumption was wrong, which means the rest of it is too. Oh well. I just want to know if the conclusion was correct, if the assumption was true.

 

[Cuivienen]

That was kinda out there

You can find similar stories all over the web. That was the first appropriate website to come up after searching "sexual orientation womb" on Google.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/02/1067708068375.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true

 

[Uiler]

There are very few "pure" homosexuals who absolutely cannot bear having sex with the opposite sex. What's more normal is varying degrees of bisexuality. One could say this may even be true of many heterosexuals though there are of course strong "leanings" to one side or the other. This is why psychologists and councillors like to say that gay or lesbian fantasies does not necessarily mean you are gay or lesbian. Many gay people have had sexual relations with the opposite sex esp. when they were younger and too afraid to "come out". Also in many ancient civilisations it was OK to have sex with your own sex but marriage was considered a familial obligation. On a note, bisexuality is looked down upon by the homosexual community because they consider bisexuals to be homosexuals who are too "weak" to admit to being a "pure" homosexual. Bisexuals are "traitors" to the homosexual community. The homosexual community does have its own agenda...

Incidentally, I read an article saying that homosexual pairings occur in 1 in 10 mallard duck pairings. So it's not that uncommon in the animal kingdom either. However I in the human world, in most societies homosexuals or bisexuals are forced to hide their urges which can diminish the extent we see them around the community and make them seem less populous then they really are.

 

[blackheart]

Natural selection is extinct in humanity. Everywhere I see, more stupid people spring up!

 

[andrewgprv]

On a note, bisexuality is looked down upon by the homosexual community because they consider bisexuals to be homosexuals who are too "weak" to admit to being a "pure" homosexual. Bisexuals are "traitors" to the homosexual community. The homosexual community does have its own agenda...

Wrong Wrong and Wrong. There are a few gays out there with that view but they are by far the minority. There is a reason we refer to ourselves as the GLBT community because we incompass Gays, Lesbians, BISEXUALS and Trans-genders.

You are right about one thing, we do have an agenda. It's called equal rights.

 

[blackheart]

Wrong Wrong and Wrong. There are a few gays out there with that view but they are by far the minority. There is a reason we refer to ourselves as the GLBT community because we incompass Gays, Lesbians, BISEXUALS and Trans-genders.

You are right about one thing, we do have an agenda. It's called equal rights.

Equal rights? In America? You're out of your mind .

Uiler, what you say reminds me of vampire movies and such (Blade to be exact), where the pure blood vampires reject the halfbloods.

 

[jonatas]

Uiler, what you say reminds me of vampire movies and such (Blade to be exact), where the pure blood vampires reject the halfbloods.

the sliding scale of bisexuality in humans(there is someone is particular who is associated with it, but i can't remember the name) is standard psychology.. i mean anyone doing 1st year psychology at university will study it

 

[andrewgprv]

the sliding scale of bisexuality in humans(there is someone is particular who is associated with it, but i can't remember the name) is standard psychology.. i mean anyone doing 1st year psychology at university will study it

Are you refering to this?

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

 

[jonatas]

Are you refering to this?

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

yep, that's it exactly... many people do not actually fit into the extremes

 

[Goober]

The only thing I want to add is that Homosexuality is NOT a choice, it is caused by genes somewhere down the line, like blonde hair, or blue eyes. I know that I did not choose to be gay, it just too me a good 17 years to figure it out in this heavily Heterosexual-biased world we live in.

And, generally speaking, the vast majority of people in the Gay Community, for example, would not ridicule or be mean to a gay guy because he had Sex with a girl. most likely, from my experience, they just wouldn't care. Unless you were cheating with a girl on your boyfriend. But that's different.

As for me having sex with a female, I can't really comment on that, given the 'G' rating of this Forum, let's just say it would be an interesting experience

 

[Perfection]

The only thing I want to add is that Homosexuality is NOT a choice, it is caused by genes somewhere down the line, like blonde hair, or blue eyes.

Just 'cause it's not a choice doesn't mean it's genetic. Fetal alcohol disease is certainly not a choice, but it ain't genetic either (not that I'd liken homosexuality to a disease)

 

[Goober]

Just 'cause it's not a choice doesn't mean it's genetic. Fetal alcohol disease is certainly not a choice, but it ain't genetic either (not that I'd liken homosexuality to a disease)

Ok, you are correct. Look, I don't know if Homosexuality is genetic or not, and, to be honest, I really don't care. I will leave that to scientists and genetists. All that I know is that it is not a choice.

 

[Uiler]

Wrong Wrong and Wrong. There are a few gays out there with that view but they are by far the minority. There is a reason we refer to ourselves as the GLBT community because we incompass Gays, Lesbians, BISEXUALS and Trans-genders.

You are right about one thing, we do have an agenda. It's called equal rights.

The attitude I described is definitely part of the gay community. Do a google search on "Bisexual homosexual community" and the entire first few pages is made up on links discussing discrimination against bisexuals from people who identify themselves as homosexuals.

From the soc.bi FAQ (a Usenet group for bisexuals):
http://serf.org/~jon/soc.bi/faq/a.html

But coming out bisexual is no easy matter, either. Some bisexuals have to face loved ones who have relied in the past on their attraction to them being constant, and who have to assure them that it will be there in the future. We also often have to deal with straight friends who assure us that our attraction to MOTSS is just "a way of avoiding intimacy" or gay friends who suggest that our attraction to MOTOS is "internalized homophobia". At all events, whether or not a bisexual is currently involved with a MOTSS, to much of the straight world anyone who comes out as bi is queer, "one of them," and is discriminated against and excluded on that basis. Thus, being bi is not an "easy way out," a "denial," or a "middle ground." It is for many people the hardest decision they will ever make.

A13. Why would lesbians/gay men discriminate against bisexuals?

One reason is because we are sometimes perceived as "hiding," a sense that some bisexuals use their bisexuality to look heterosexual at work, in straight social settings, to enjoy the "heterosexual privilege" that is part of the social norm. Secondly, bisexuals are sometimes seen as blurring the issues and weakening the lesbian and gay movement. Naturally, bisexual activists disagree with this view (we feel that the real issue is sexual freedom for all sexualities), but sometimes lesbians and gays label bisexuals "traitors" for this reason. A further reason is that some lesbians and gay men also have sex with MOTOS (while not identifying as bisexual). Often peer pressure means that they can't admit this in the lesbian and gay communities, and see bisexuality as a threat to their own acceptance. And finally, simply because of the fear that arises out of ignorance and out of the media's very poor record of portraying bisexuals as serial killers, homophobes and generally self-centred, confused people.

The lesbian and gay communities are oppressed by homophobia and prejudice, but unfortunately being oppressed is no guarantee that you won't oppress others. Happily, prejudice against bisexuals in the lesbian and gay communities seems to be diminishing over time as more people come to accept that sexuality is not a monochrome issue.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bisexuality.htm

Bisexuals are really gays or lesbians who don't want to come completely out of the closet: It was a very common belief among homosexuals up until the mid 1980s that some people were gay or lesbian, but described themselves as "bisexual" because it was more acceptable to society. However, there are many individuals who identify themselves as bisexuals and who have had fulfilling sexual relationships with both men and women during their adult life.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bisexuality (which takes info from wikipedia)

Gay and lesbian people have sometimes perceived (and adopted) the bisexual label as a way of holding on to heterosexual privilege. In some cases, the bisexual label has been used by those who are questioning their orientation or engaged in same-sex activity while closeted and heterosexually married. This often leads to the misperception that anyone who identifies as bisexual is really gay or lesbian but afraid to admit it. This misperception is often evident in popular culture, in film, television and in music and in the popular saying in gay culture: 'Bi now gay later'.

The television show "Friends" sported a short song about the topic that expresses a common (if misinformed) opinion on the subject:

"Sometimes men love women,
Sometimes men love men,
Then there are bisexuals
Though some people say they're kidding themselves"

There is also a perception by some in the lesbian community that bisexuals may leave women for men or vice-versa.

Because many bisexual people often do not feel that they fit into either the gay community or the heterosexual world, and because they have a tendency to become invisible in public (fitting in rather seamlessly into both homosexual and heterosexual society), some bisexual persons are committed to forming their own communities and movement.

 

[mrtn]

I believe in that "family group" idea. A homosexual in the family can give his nephews (and such) a better upbringing, and get part of his/her genes passed on, even if he's not their actual father.

 

[Toasty]

I hate all the "homosexuality is a choice" jargon. I hate all the "homosexuality is a mental condition" jargon.

I mean, to me, different people are attracted to different things; lord knows how many conversations I've had to endure about which men and women aren't attractive. Sexuality cannot be narrowly defined to a single thing in any person, so why would it be true for homosexuals?

I still don't get what the big deal is, anyways.

 

[stratego]

but those blue eyes are said to come from Alexander the Great's soldiers... or maybe it's just a legend

And homosexuality too.