How can you believe in evolution but no social darwinism

I think, technically, FAL is correct. Evolution does continue in humans, and the offspring of tall people have a greater likelihood of being tall, the offspring of musicians have a greater likelihood of having musical talents, the offspring of athletes to be athletic, of smart people to be smart, etc.

And technically, we could breed humans to improve certain specific traits that were desirable. The traditional way of breeding would only allow for some very narrow goals however. and while bioengineering can allow us to be more precise at selecting favorable traits, we would still have to decide which traits are favorable and which aren't.

And I think an argument that wealthy people have been evolutionary more successful can be had: If I understand correctly, until the modern age, a great deal of poor people died from starvation, illnesses and environmental hazards that the richer people were protected from. I'm afraid I can't remember the source of the following claim, but it might be that large numbers of poor people died off without procreating. Their ranks were soon filled however, with the less successful offspring of richer people. Only a few of the rich peoples offspring were able to remain rich as the generations passed, and thus great-grandsons of rich people became the poor people as the old poor people died, etc.

However, because our intelligence and opposable thumbs have a much greater effect on our surroundings than our mere bodies, and coupled with out social groups, it is hard to say if any specific selection has taken place in humanity in the last tens of hundreds of thousands of years.

But to approach FAL's question more directly: Arguing for Social Darwinism - even if it only means individual differences - necessarily implies that one can deem which traits are favorable, and which aren't. This becomes especially hard if one can only accept our refuse each potential individual as a package, and not put together just selected traits for a human being (think "designer babies").

For instance, I reckon a case could be made to choose away me because of my physical defects: near-sightedness, asthma and allergies. But on the other hand, I seem to be quite intelligent and economically productive: At least private companies are willing to exchange a fair amount of money for my services. Should a person like me be chosen in or chosen out?

That is not universally true. There is not, as you seem to assume, a "basic" model for human society, and there is great variety between primitive societies. Most, in fact, tend to distribute goods on an as-need basis, rather than in accordance with status; essentially a form of communism. High social status tends to take the form of prestige and influence, rather than the formalised hierarchy you suggest. Those groups in which hierarchy does begin to emerge are typically those who have been able to adopt a more sedentary lifestyle, and so allow a material surplus to develop,
Humans were more egalitarian before we had lots of material possessions, of course, but there were still differences in status, social standing, attractiveness, strength and beauty. There is no reason to believe that nomadic people generally treats all their individuals the same way. That we became less egalitarian with material possessions is simply an effect from having another dimension to develop differences in.

Bonobos are, however, our closest relatives, so that rather suggests that referencing Great Apes may be a rather fruitless task.
I'm not aware how the differences pan out here. How much more closer are bonobos than chimps to humans?

Because the Polar and Kodiak bears are distinct species, which is to say that they have undergone speciation. Eskimos and "Africans" have not, and not least because the latter does not refer to any one ethnic group or "race". (In fact, even if we are to take it as a reference to Sub-Saharan or "Black" Africans, they still represent a great many ethnic groups; there is more genetic diversity, in fact, in Sub-Saharan African than in the rest of the human species put together. If your Racialism was accurate, most humans would be a sub-set of a sub-set of African, rather than a set of equal level.)
Err... Kodiaks and Polars have mated recently, and I haven't heard anything about their offspring being infertile?

People don't just fail or succeed because of their own actions or abilities. Plenty of people who suffer have the capacity to do impressive things, but never get the chance because of their circumstances or bad luck. If anything, supporting each other is a benefit to our evolution, because it stops potentially awesome genes from dying out before they've had the chance to shine.
But this argument ignores the generality of the idea. It could just as well be used against evolution itself, couldn't it?
 
And seriously with your appeal to nature argument.

What is so inherently moral about making 2 unequal people equal?

There's no moral basis for that.

Yeah, why should Colin Powell, net worth ~$27million be worth as much as Paris Hilton net worth ~$45million?
 
How can you believe in evolution but no social darwinism

Because the only people that advocate such a philosophy are moneyed douchebags who use it to justify their own superiority, with regards to money.
 
No, basically without a God, the ruling government decides what right or wrong. If if another government conquers that one, they get to decided. Realistically in human history, whoever has power dictates whats right or wrong. Human history has been a history of "might makes right".

Please stop making yourself a self-parody by ignoring the is-ought fallacy, thanks.

Cheetah said:
And I think an argument that wealthy people have been evolutionary more successful can be had

The aristocracies were inbred nightmares with countless genetic disorders.
 
Yeah, why should Colin Powell, net worth ~$27million be worth as much as Paris Hilton net worth ~$45million?

Wait, money is an idea that humans came up with which has nothing to do with inherent superiority.

Why are we using it as a measuring stick in this discussion? We might as well arbitrarily decide that those who live in purple houses are superior. It makes no sense from a scientific standpoint.
 
No, basically without a God, the ruling government decides what right or wrong.
Which God gave them the authority to do.
Romans 13:1-7 said:
et every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore, one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Nazi's! Doing God's Work, 1931 to 1945. (Apologies if I got the first date wrong)
Evidently, the ruling authorities decide what is right or wrong with God's blessing.
 
Wait, money is an idea that humans came up with which has nothing to do with inherent superiority.

Why are we using it as a measuring stick in this discussion? We might as well arbitrarily decide that those who live in purple houses are superior. It makes no sense from a scientific standpoint.

Fallen Angel Lord contends that evolution creates material inequality, because some people are inherently superior.
 
Fallen Angel Lord contends that evolution creates material inequality, because some people are inherently superior.

Evolution has nothing to do with discovering oil or winning the lottery.


If this is seriously the argument he's using, I lost all respect for the intelligence level of this discussion.
 
Humans were more egalitarian before we had lots of material possessions, of course, but there were still differences in status, social standing, attractiveness, strength and beauty. There is no reason to believe that nomadic people generally treats all their individuals the same way. That we became less egalitarian with material possessions is simply an effect from having another dimension to develop differences in.
Differing levels of social status does not necessarily imply a hierarchy; in most primitive societies, higher social status lends greater influence in decision making, rather than any formal superiority. Primitive societies tend to be cooperative, rather than authoritarian. The closest thing to formal superiority tends to lie in individuals occupying religious or spiritual positions within the tribe- shamans, in essence- and that kind of status has little to do with the sort of biological advantages suggested by FAL.

I'm not aware how the differences pan out here. How much more closer are bonobos than chimps to humans?
Actually, I will admit that I appear to have been mistaken on this point. While Bonobos are genetically more similar, they share a closer ancestor with Chimps than with humans.
Either way, though, it goes to show that the societies of Great Apes provide an ineffective illustration of any fundamental "human nature". When both candidates differ so significantly not only form humans but from each other, it becomes nothing more than a desperate appeal to nature.

Err... Kodiaks and Polars have mated recently, and I haven't heard anything about their offspring being infertile?
Perhaps, but I don't see what bearing that has on the concept of human "race". :dunno: (Um, no pun intended. :cringe:)

Do keep in mind, Murky is suggesting that we consider Africans and Eskimos to be distinct species, or at least sub-species, which is, well, that's a special kind of creepy.
 
There wasn't one to begin with. This thread was over on the fifth post.
 
Which God gave them the authority to do.

Nazi's! Doing God's Work, 1931 to 1945. (Apologies if I got the first date wrong)
Evidently, the ruling authorities decide what is right or wrong with God's blessing.

You are misinterpreting God's words. It is not that all governments inevitably punish wrong and reward right, but that in general government does this. And in general, even less good governments do this to a certain extent. Rome was corrupt, but as a general rule they dealt with crime. Nazi Germany was an exception to the rule.
 
Wait, money is an idea that humans came up with which has nothing to do with inherent superiority.

Why are we using it as a measuring stick in this discussion? We might as well arbitrarily decide that those who live in purple houses are superior. It makes no sense from a scientific standpoint.

As a proxy for ability. That's what FAL has been doing in other threads.
 
As a proxy for ability. That's what FAL has been doing in other threads.

But.... that's absolutely LUDICROUS!

No one in their right MIND would think that money = skill.

Who in blue hades believes this???
 
You are misinterpreting God's words.
Sola Scriptura. I don't have to follow traditional interpretations.
Rome was corrupt, but as a general rule they dealt with crime. Nazi Germany was an exception to the rule.
Last I checked the Bible, unlike the Book of Nuggan (bonus points if you get the refrence) doesn't have appendices in three ring binders clarifying when God's laws apply.
 
If you care to take the time, browse his posts over the past week or 2 :dunno:

I am not sure I want to. I've already been floored by ridiculousness today, I don't want to get my blood pressure up for no reason.

Barely-functional inbred hillbilly gets state-mandated insurance for his car (not optional). Because he is still making payments, he needs to get full coverage (not optional). Drunk driver plows into his car, totals it (no conscious effort made). Insurance settlement doesn't go towards new car because he's in the hospital and his sister/bride-to-be takes the money and gets a lotto ticket with it, and makes 3 million dollars.

With skill, you can make money. With pure dumb idiot luck, you can make lots of money.

Having money, on the other hand, is not an indication of talent or worth.

You'd have to be as barely-functional as the guy in my story to think otherwise.


Is this thread over now?
 
But this argument ignores the generality of the idea. It could just as well be used against evolution itself, couldn't it?

Maybe that's why we evolved to be compassionate (well, minus a few genetic throwbacks of course). ;)
 
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