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How do liberals feel about this?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Mouthwash, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. kulade

    kulade Deity

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    Sort of interesting you employ libertarian ethics for something like this. It's worth noting that most of the big names in intellectual libertarianism take precisely the opposite stance on abortion. Rothbard I know said that the fetus, even if we categorize it as a human, is a biological squatter on the woman and she has the right to expel it just as she has the right to expel a squatter from her land etc.

    You saying that sex constitutes consent isn't meaningful because (1) free consent can be withdrawn in libertarian ethics (i.e. if you let a person sleep in your house for a night, that does not mean you cannot tell him to leave the next night) and (2) even if that were true, sex acts that employ contraception by definition constitute means that specifically do not imply consent to child-bearing.

    I think if anything you're trying to take your already decided upon moral beliefs and trying to graft them upon an ethical system you pretend to accept axiomatically. You may think that abortion is morally bad, which I think is sensible, but because libertarian ethics, based on nearly nothing besides property rights and "natural law" etc. fail to make a coherent worldview anyway, you can't get anywhere.

    As I stated above, most hardcore libertarians are pro-choice in the most extreme way and it certainly makes a lot more sense with their ethics than anything else. The problem with those ethics is, as another poster noted, there is no sense of social obligation, not in some fuzzy social democratic or public welfare sense, but in the sense of the family and other traditional institutions. In private property rights and libertarian ethics, it is entirely permissible to not only abort fetuses, but to commit infanticide, neglect, or simply abandon children or members of their family. When your ethical system is based only on your infinite rights to production without any non-economic responsibility you don't really have a complete view of morality.
     
  2. Old Hippy

    Old Hippy Deity

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    the problem seems to be that you don't actually believe that people have a right to live, you place it along side things sorta like, the right to drive a car
     
  3. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Except that capital punishment doesn't repay anyone anything for the life the (alleged) murderer has taken, does it?

    A life simply isn't a commodity that can be traded. Unless you're an advocate of slavery, I suppose. Even then it's not the life, but the labour, that's being traded.
     
  4. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    You are correct that most hardcore libertarians take the opposite position that I do. Most libertarians, however, admit that children are a special case when it comes to the non-aggression axiom; that it is sometimes justifiable to stop a kid from hurting himself even while it would be abhorrent to stop an adult from hurting themselves. I think you have a special obligation to your own children as well, unless you transfer this obligation in an agreed upon manner to another person.

    As for duty to family, I would say you have a moral duty to everyone in your family, but should only have a legal one to your own children until they become adults.
     
  5. Double A

    Double A ♫We got the guillotine♫

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    If you take that stance, then how are you gonna stop fetuses from rolling around in their mother's womb?
     
  6. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    So the answer is no. You know nothing at all. You don't know the first thing about politics, the constitution, science, or economics. Lemme, guess, you don't believe in calculus either? Can you please just do us all a favor and spend more time studying (so maybe you'll learn something) and less time on this website. Just go away and don't come back until you have at least a bare minimum education.
     
  7. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    I don't understand calculus but that doesn't mean I don't believe in it...
     
  8. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    No, you pretty much disbelieve calculus and you show us that everytime you support mathemagically based budgets, statics, etc. You also have gone out of your way to explain exactly how you don't believe in many science or math based things you don't understand while simultaneously trying to deflect any counteraguments by way of your ignorance in the subject.

    I said I don't know about radiocarbon dating!
    but it's still wrong cuz jesushorse
     
  9. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    Okay that post was a little bit harsh. Maybe I don't want you to just go away...but do you really think the world is only 6,000 years old? Seriously.
     
  10. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    6,000? No, probably not. Somewhere in the ten thousands? Probably.
     
  11. Mosher

    Mosher Mushroom dad

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    I like to ignore science sometimes, too.
     
  12. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    Under no circumstance does that make any sense whatsoever. It's completely inconsistent with every other estimate for how old the earth is. At least YEC's are consistent, it's always around 6000 years old.
     
  13. Goodfella

    Goodfella Showing results for

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    Yeah, 6,000 years old? That's just ridiculous. Try 10,000.

    Really though, the idea of Earth being just several thousand years old is depressing. Not just because people believe it's true, but because it makes everything, universe and all, a puny and brutish bubble, significant only for humanity's existence -- an existence plagued by disease, ignorance, and warfare, and thus everything amounts to nothing.
     
  14. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    What if someone (hypothetically) utilized calculus to definitively prove that communism is the ideal economic system? Would you still "believe" in calculus?
     
  15. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    A world in which death predates sin is even more depressing to me. That would mean death is God's fault. In the real (Young;)) earth, its our fault.
     
  16. Mosher

    Mosher Mushroom dad

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    I would like you to scientifically prove to me that the Earth is only a few thousand years old, and that the Young Earth theory is truth.
     
  17. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Why is death something to be viewed as a fault? Embrace the gift of mortality, young Numenorian!
     
  18. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    "God told me."
     
  19. schlaufuchs

    schlaufuchs La Femme Moderne

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    Dude this has been tried a myriad different ways with dommy. Likewise evolution.

    Dommy's going to respond something to the effect "well I can't explain it properly/I'm not versed in the facts, but classical_hero is an expert on YEC so he can give you the evidence."

    It should be noted that c_h is an absolute stonewall who actively disbelieves any and all evidence provided to him. In other words, this is a futile effort and pointless derail that will result in nothing but more pc for dommy.
     
  20. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    You know, I have kind of devil's advocated this argument before against other YECers. Obviously plants did die before the Fall. I could work it for animals as well, although the fact that animals inevitably suffer pain before death makes it really tricky. But I absolutely can't reconcile with human evolution. There's no doubt in my mind that this process, if true, is absolutely horiffic.
     

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