How do you end 'cancel culture'?

[Berzerker]

If you were my employee and you said something dumb that caused a boycott putting my livelihood at stake bye bye you're fired.

Yes, thats the mechanism by which cancel culture inhibits free speech

 

[Traitorfish]

Oh, yes there is. Any kind of social hierarchy tends to allow those higher-up in the hierarchy to say what they like without facing any kind of consequences from those lower down. This is why Berzerker believes that freedom of speech means the freedom to say anything you like without social censure or any other consequences.

Those driving "cancel culture" are a tier or two below those at the top of the hierarchy; these are "consequences from those lower down" only in the most literal sense. This isn't about holding the power accountability to the masses, it's a conflict within elite professional strata for diminishing employment and patronage.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Yes, thats the mechanism by which cancel culture inhibits free speech

May I remind you that the enshrined free speech you are going on about only refers to speech against the government? Yes, you are entitled to speak out against the government. "Free" speech is not a license to act like an ass and say whatever you feel like, potentially hurting people, or causing monetary losses to your employer (for example).

Just because you can open your mouth and say anything you wish, does not mean that you should. Free speech is only constitutionally guaranteed when that speech is directed at the government. It's a complete fallacy to say that you can say anything you like and not expect some repercussions if what you say hurts someone. For that kind of speech, there is no "free" speech.

 

[Lexicus]

Those driving "cancel culture" are a tier or two below those at the top of the hierarchy; these are "consequences from those lower down" only in the most literal sense. This isn't about holding the power accountability to the masses, it's a conflict within elite professional strata for diminishing employment and patronage.

I wasn't making any point about contemporary cancel culture, I was noting that Berzerker's conception of free speech mirrors the dynamics found in, for example, an abusive relationship where the woman is economically dependent on the man and cannot hold him accountable for his verbal abuse by e.g. leaving him, or customers at a fast-food joint verbally abusing employees with impunity because "the customer is always right."

For Berzerker, freedom of speech appears to mean the sort of freedom enjoyed by abusers in these contexts: the right to say whatever one likes, at any time, to anyone, without being held accountable in any way. The logic is identical: if a boycott of a book or a of speaker on the lecture circuit inhibits free speech, so my girlfriend is inhibiting my free speech when she leaves me after I call her a stupid whore.

 

[Berzerker]

May I remind you that the enshrined free speech you are going on about only refers to speech against the government?

The 1st Amendment restricted Congress, free speech can be denied or inhibited regardless if government exists. Just ask Mom or Dad.

"Free" speech is not a license to act like an ass and say whatever you feel like, potentially hurting people, or causing monetary losses to your employer (for example).

Thats up to the employer to decide, not me. If the monetary loss came from a boycott then who is potentially hurting whom? My point is boycotting free speech inhibits free speech... and that makes it no longer free speech. Freedom is the absence of coercion or constraint, threatening to fire people for their speech is coercive. Joe McCarthy paved the road cancel culture is heading down.

It's a complete fallacy to say that you can say anything you like and not expect some repercussions if what you say hurts someone. For that kind of speech, there is no "free" speech.

Who said that? We're debating the point at which those repercussions inhibit free speech.

 

[Berzerker]

I wasn't making any point about contemporary cancel culture, I was noting that Berzerker's conception of free speech mirrors the dynamics found in, for example, an abusive relationship where the woman is economically dependent on the man and cannot hold him accountable for his verbal abuse by e.g. leaving him, or customers at a fast-food joint verbally abusing employees with impunity because "the customer is always right."

For Berzerker, freedom of speech appears to mean the sort of freedom enjoyed by abusers in these contexts: the right to say whatever one likes, at any time, to anyone, without being held accountable in any way. The logic is identical: if a boycott of a book or a of speaker on the lecture circuit inhibits free speech, so my girlfriend is inhibiting my free speech when she leaves me after I call her a stupid whore.

Is she free to verbally abuse him? I know the fast food employee isn't so I dont know why you're using that as an example. You're not required to buy a book so you (she) can leave, but if you make the effort to silence the author via boycotts, it is your intent to inhibit free speech, right? Is that your GFs motive? She doesn't have to buy the book either.

 

[Traitorfish]

I wasn't making any point about contemporary cancel culture, I was noting that Berzerker's conception of free speech mirrors the dynamics found in, for example, an abusive relationship where the woman is economically dependent on the man and cannot hold him accountable for his verbal abuse by e.g. leaving him, or customers at a fast-food joint verbally abusing employees with impunity because "the customer is always right."

For Berzerker, freedom of speech appears to mean the sort of freedom enjoyed by abusers in these contexts: the right to say whatever one likes, at any time, to anyone, without being held accountable in any way. The logic is identical: if a boycott of a book or a of speaker on the lecture circuit inhibits free speech, so my girlfriend is inhibiting my free speech when she leaves me after I call her a stupid whore.

The freedom to do something is always at the same time the freedom from somebody else who might stop you doing it, and while Berzerker might be narrowly fixated on the to, we also need to consider the from. In practice, the people enacting the "accountability" associated with "cancel culture" are not the general public, they're lower-status members of the same elite professional strata that are being held to account. When a senior journalist writes something offensive, he is "held to account" by junior journalists who would benefit economically from his being removed from the industry and the new opportunities for employment, resources and patronage that his absence creates. It's not class conflict, it's intra-class conflict.

 

[Zardnaar]

So Berserker if you called my wife a F... whore and I punched you in the face for it does that impede your free speech?

Note when I punch someone in the face I normally aim for the nose. Haven't had to do it since the 90s.

 

[amadeus]

But if we are to entertain the complaints about 'cancel culture', which I believe are mostly coming from conservatives and moderates, then I think we can't help but come to the conclusion that the capitalist logic that they hold dearly is actually responsible.

I don’t agree. I think it’s entirely possible to say one has rights, but saying the result of how they are being exercised can sometimes be unreasonable is not inconsistent. I don’t know we need to indict a whole system in order to say that excesses can occur.

I could be reading your post wrong; please correct me if I have misunderstood your position.

 

[Berzerker]

So Berserker if you called my wife a F... whore and I punched you in the face for it does that impede your free speech?

of course...what do you think?

 

[NovaKart]

Why do people here continue to act as if cancel culture only consists of people losing their job over saying blatantly offensive things?

 

[RobAnybody]

I mean he's (Berzerker) correct, in a trivial sense. By you punching him in the face, you are clearly not respecting his "right to free speech". I don't think you two are arguing, you're agreeing. Your (Zardnaar) response is understandable, respectable even, justified, & most likely your wife will sex you up for it.

But you, a private citizen, prevented him from exercising "free speech" by (justifiably) punching him. The (USian) gov't didn't, & wouldn't, but you did, in this hypothetical. It's a crime though, what you did, not what he did. But you should realize that he's "motte & bailying'ing" you (I learned that term on this site). He's making a ridiculous argument, but then retreating behind an unassailable position ("oh you hate Free Speech!!!") when challenged

 

[Socrates99]

Why do people here continue to act as if cancel culture only consists of people losing their job over saying blatantly offensive things?

I don't know. I did bring up BDS. Where people have a legitimate opinion on foreign policy and are being harmed for it. Berserker does keep bringing up the Dixie Chicks who's careers stalled because Country music fans are generally overly jingoistic flag huggers and they made bad mouth noises about Dubya during the illegal war he started. That's definitely negative cancel culture.

 

[NovaKart]

The thing that comes to my mind right away is Alison Roman at the NYT. Dixie Chicks is a good example too except it’s nearly 20 years old.

 

[RobAnybody]

Berserker does keep bringing up the Dixie Chicks who's careers stalled because Country music fans are generally overly jingoistic flag huggers and they made bad mouth noises about Dubya during the illegal war he started. That's definitely negative cancel culture.

There he's not wrong. "Cancel Culture" can come from both sides. The Right led the charge to "Cancel" The Dixie Chicks. Tipper Gore (Al Gore's wife) led the "Cancel Culture" of the '90's (it wasn't called that then) against rap music. It led to a self-imposed "Parental Advisory" sticker on music CD's (I did say the 90's! bear with me) when the music industry decided to put stickers on CDs to head off any sort of government regulation, because that was an actual real fear.

The result? It eventually became a Badge of Honor - teens & college kids actively looked for "Parental Advisory" stickers - those CD's were more desirable (I was there, we did). A CD with a Parental Advisory sticker was more desirable than one without, even the same Walmart-friendly CD - no one wanted that version.

Today, "cancel culture" tends to come from the left. It's... sad? ironic? The Moral Majority used to be the enemy of The Left. Now the Left IS the Moral Majority. Ironic is probably a better term (Alanis Morissette would approve). But sad probably also applies.

 

[Berzerker]

He's making a ridiculous argument, but then retreating behind an unassailable position ("oh you hate Free Speech!!!") when challenged

What is the ridiculous argument and where did I defend it with 'you hate free speech'?

 

[Crezth]

Okay the "moral majority" went from saying kids shouldn't see swearing and nobody should be allowed to drink alcohol, to we shouldn't lock up Black folks en masse and we should treat homosexual people with basic human decency. It's not the same.

 

[RobAnybody]

What is the ridiculous argument and where did I defend it with 'you hate free speech'?

See? Here I'm expected to attack him in the "motte", to give some explicit example of him literally saying he defended an argument by literally saying he said, as a rebuttal "you hate free speech". Then, if I can't produce an exact quote of him literally saying those exact words, he'll be able to deploy to the "bailey", the less defensible aspects of his argument,

 

[RobAnybody]

Okay the "moral majority" went from saying kids shouldn't see swearing and nobody should be allowed to drink alcohol, to we shouldn't lock up Black folks en masse and we should treat homosexual people with basic human decency. It's not the same.

Yeah, 'cause NWA, Snoop Dogg, Biggie, 2Pac, & other rap music was SOOO inclusive, gay friendly, & not at all mysogynistic. You're totally different from the Moral Majority censorship police.

 

[Crezth]

Yeah, 'cause NWA, Snoop Dogg, Biggie, 2Pac, & other rap music was SOOO inclusive, gay friendly, & not at all mysogynistic. You're totally different from the Moral Majority censorship police.

If the right wing moral majority people were about human rights instead of whatever they were about we probably wouldn’t even be having this conversation.