How is your EU3 Game going?

[Duke of Britain]

Spoiler :

Is it worth westernising?

Don't get western unit group until way later, because Ottoman units are better. But you should westernize your tech group ASAP

 

[Tee Kay]

It's always worth Westernizing.

Also, you might want to become DotF due to the bonuses

The way Paradox made the game, basically if you haven't Westernised by 1600 as a Muslim tech nation (or 1500 as a Chinese tech nation, or 1399 as a New World tech nation), you die.

I never take DotF until after 1650, since you get dragged into too many wars, typically against Castile/Great Britain/France.

 

[Duke of Britain]

The way Paradox made the game, basically if you haven't Westernised by 1600 as a Muslim tech nation (or 1500 as a Chinese tech nation, or 1399 as a New World tech nation), you die.

I never take DotF until after 1650, since you get dragged into too many wars, typically against Castile/Great Britain/France.

You realize that DoF gives you some awful penalties to trade and production tech, right?

 

[Tee Kay]

You realize that DoF gives you some awful penalties to trade and production tech, right?

Yeah, which is why I usually don't take DotF even after 1650.

 

[Dachs]

It's always worth Westernizing.

Reason #1 why I'm unable to play EU3 anymore

 

[Duke of Britain]

Reason #1 why I'm unable to play EU3 anymore

You could always mod the tech groups or westernization decision, it's just so much easy.

 

[Dachs]

You could always mod the tech groups or westernization decision, it's just so much easy.

I could, yeah. But then the game's balance would go down from "low" to "nonexistent". Fun times.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Reason #1 why I'm unable to play EU3 anymore

Which is why I can't wait for Magna Mundi the Game

No longer will westernization be a no-brainer decision.

 

[Bowsling]

Well, I suppose they call it Europa Universalis for a reason.

 

[Duke of Britain]

No longer will westernization be a no-brainer decision.

It actually was in real life, countries that never modernized got screwed over time...and when they tried it was too late and harsh (Qing China)

The problem is how tech groups are unbalanced, that you can easily mod (or play mods that balance it, like in D&T i've seen super Oman leading in tech, wayyy ahead of any european OPM)

 

[Dachs]

It actually was in real life, countries that never modernized got screwed over time...and when they tried it was too late and harsh (Qing China)

Qing China was screwed over because it modernized, not because it failed to modernize.

 

[aronnax]

Qing China was screwed over because it modernized, not because it failed to modernize.

I though Qing China was screwed because its attempt to modernise was terrible?

 

[Dachs]

I though Qing China was screwed because its attempt to modernise was terrible?

It didn't have a lot of options and under the circumstances they managed the best that could reasonably have been expected of them.

The mere act of modernization destroyed the legitimacy of the state, though. Shame.

 

[Duke of Britain]

It didn't have a lot of options and under the circumstances they managed the best that could reasonably have been expected of them.

The mere act of modernization destroyed the legitimacy of the state, though. Shame.

Well, i did said their attempt to modernize was late and harsh, had they tried to start it earlier and do it over time, they could have suceeded and maybe we would have a Chinese superpower instead of lots of warlord states.

 

[GamezRule]

I thought Qing China was just generally screwed.

 

[Tee Kay]

Well, i did said their attempt to modernize was late and harsh, had they tried to start it earlier and do it over time, they could have suceeded and maybe we would have a Chinese superpower instead of lots of warlord states.

"Westernisation" has dubious benefits prior to around 1800. China was generally speaking on par with The West technologically until the start of the 19th century, with the notable exception of firearms (Western guns and cannons were arguably better than the Chinese from about 1650 onwards); then again, China was not really under any serious military threat from any Western force. From the point of view of the ruling class, Westernisation would inevitably bring social and economic changes which would be difficult to control in any circumstances and risks the stability of the regime. It was the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions which finally enabled Europeans to leap ahead of everyone else, and made Westernisation essential for survival. No one in China as late as the 1780s could've seen that coming.

In any case, the Westernisation decisions for EU3 are anything but gradual modernisation programs. You jump from one tech group to another at one click of the mouse. Countries that don't Westernise suffer doubly from bad technology and bad units, often leading to swift conquest when Europeans arrive with little to no opportunity to improve their situation, which is absurd. Additionally, military Westernisation follows cultural Westernisation, when it should be the other way around; falling behind militarily is the number one reason for a ruler to initiate reforms.

 

[Duke of Britain]

In any case, the Westernisation decisions for EU3 are anything but gradual modernisation programs. You jump from one tech group to another at one click of the mouse. Countries that don't Westernise suffer doubly from bad technology and bad units, often leading to swift conquest when Europeans arrive with little to no opportunity to improve their situation, which is absurd. Additionally, military Westernisation follows cultural Westernisation, when it should be the other way around; falling behind militarily is the number one reason for a ruler to initiate reforms.

Seriously, it's so much easy to mod the tech groups or download a mod that fix it like D&T...

In D&T, like i said before, the tech groups are better balanced, i said i've seen Oman leading in tech ahead of anyone else.
The units are also balanced.


And i disagree about the europeans being ahead of China only in 1780, before that their army discipline and weapons were already much better, they had much better warships and held a lot of influence and power around many different regions.
I'd say that the reason China never was invaded was because : 1. Their numbers
2. Balance of Power

while i agree about the tech groups being unbalanced, the europeans should start getting ahead really early, just not as quickly as they do in vanilla. (where you see China with land tech 16~ while Europe has 35-40~)
Mods fix that, try D&T or MEIOU.

 

[Dachs]

And i disagree about the europeans being ahead of China only in 1780, before that their army discipline and weapons were already much better, they had much better warships and held a lot of influence and power around many different regions.

The Qing Empire possessed an army equal to the Russians' in fighting power and superior in terms of logistical background and numbers as late as the 1760s. Notably, the Qing suppressed a major power that Russia was unable to seriously harm (the Zunghar empire of modern Xinjiang) under the reign of the Qianlong Emperor.

Russia's army in the 1760s was quite equivalent to any other European state's; it could certainly hold its own against Prussia, as demonstrated by the Seven Years' War that ended around the same time.

Sure, other European powers had warships and whatnot that the Qing did not possess, but that is irrelevant; Qing China had no real overseas interests and no need to project power to distant continents. Britain and France did. It is apples and oranges.

I'd say that the reason China never was invaded was because : [...]
2. Balance of Power

 

[Duke of Britain]

So i am wrong? do you think the powers of Europe would allow say, the UK, that already owned India, to (try to) colonize China?
China was rich and populous, controlling it would mean a lot, resources and a market.

 

[W|M]

I think the Chinese would have managed to hold off any attempt of European colonization inside it before the 19th Century.