I cried today...

[tomsnowman123]

It's not about pwning or losing. He just wants his point to be understood. And I'd say he's pretty elegant in the manner he expresses it.

But yeah, I see what you're saying.

Seconded. White Elk is bringing up points that most people don't want to face.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I say this very rarely, but White Elk has just pwned everyone.

Maxwell House FTW! FTW = For 'teh' win

White Elk, maybe theres something to what youre saying, I too wish to fight the power, but Maxwell House and Walmart dont satisfy all my righteous posturing needs. I want to widen the struggle to include all of Western civilization, not just the US. Im sure you have a list handy of all the European owned corporations that I should also boycot, could you post them?

 

[IglooDame]

Come on. i think you have every right to be angry at what your nation did wrong, even if you think the good deeds outweight the wrong... White Elk is not saying "the US sucks". he's saying "here's what sucks about the US".
His post is not about whether the US is right or wrong, but about what's wrong.

True enough. But it seems to me (though I'm no economist, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night) that some of the evils he talks about (rampant consumerism) go hand-in-hand with some of the goods he doesn't (like technology levels and living standards both inside the US and in third world countries).

Is government corruption a huge problem in the US and throughout the rest of the world? Absolutely.

Is corporate corruption and profit-seeking-at-all-costs a huge problem in the US and throughout the rest of the world? Yep, absolutely.

Is his life considerably better than it might have been had not governments and commercial entities spent huge amounts of resources getting us to where we are today? I'm guessing the answer is 'absolutely'.

 

[Shaihulud]

You don't think such an attitude is a recipy for indifference to a lot of soluble problems then, we can take it?

Facts can be changed.

What is a problem for you, is a profit for others, and there are people who will respect a good profit above any considerations.

Don't let yourself fall into a malaise though, you may just learn to if not condone the facts ignore them. Still hoping in blind hope that the mistakes of the past, of which all the western powers are culpable are not repeated again in the future, somewhat naive to think they wont be though. The US's actions do somewhat pale into significance when compared to Europes, but we do have an excuse of it being old world history to point to, that said though

The 'malaise' that i am feeling is not brought on by any historical actions or any Western countries, which is too far away to be of any consequential to me. It is brought on by real and close contact with people who profits from suffering, and by people around me who cannot see and understand it.

 

[Verbose]

What is a problem for you, is a profit for others, and there are people who will respect a good profit above any considerations.

Absolutely. Which is why they are also political issues, not just business.

It is always profitable for some, at least in the short run, not to adress problems.

Should they be allowed to make it policy out of it? Maybe not.
But are they already? Oh yes, at certain times and in certain places.

 

[blackheart]

Maxwell House FTW! FTW = For 'teh' win

White Elk, maybe theres something to what youre saying, I too wish to fight the power, but Maxwell House and Walmart dont satisfy all my righteous posturing needs. I want to widen the struggle to include all of Western civilization, not just the US. Im sure you have a list handy of all the European owned corporations that I should also boycot, could you post them?

Grow up Bozo, White Elk just made a serious point that is true and inherent to, well, everything and you blow it off.

 

[White Elk]

Moderator Action: Doesn't the post look better without all the foul language in it? Your warning with all the others on page 3 of this thread. - TY
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Oye! I was lucky to happen to notice this warning. I may have other warnings and may be on my third strike for all I know. I thought my self censorship was adequate, but now I know it was not. I'm glad to better understand what is and what isn't deemed acceptable here. So I will refrain from using these words as punctuation.

But I would suggest that warnings also come via PM or email.
Warnings don't work when people dont know they've been warned.

 

[White Elk]

I don't blame the country of America here. Nor do I really blame any particular administration. At one time in my countries history it was very important for the goverment to support big business. It was Ford Motor Company, Boeing and such that assured we had the power to fight that Second World War. But those were days when leaders of great corporations operated under a differant morality set. Of course missdeeds were still done, but it was not near so prevelant and accepted by our society. Over time it seems to me that both the morality of business and the people shifted. But whats worse is how deeply tied the US gov is to big business. Private corporations use the US gov to gain terratories, resources and markets. And the US gov uses private industry to further its political aims. This is simply wrong. And it is illegal as far as I understand our Constitution. And I think we need to seperate Capatalism from Government even more than we needed to seperate Religion from State.

It appears to me that most people don't much care about the chain of events that occur to bring them their products so long as it fits within their budgets. Many folks barely get by. But most folks I know who "are barely getting by" live well beyond their means, and a significant chunk of their budget is spent on pure recreation. So this could tell me that the masses place a higher value on toys and trinkets than on their fellow man. But I think it is simply that the masses are truley unaware of the consequences of the methods that some corps use to make their buck. I beleive that if people better understand who and what they support, then they will make conscious decisions to acquire their products from peoples who are not so darn destructive to our habitats and our peoples. I can only hope that through education and awarness the American consumer, and the consumers of all nations will change the world simply by how they spend their money.

 

[Sidhe]

Amen White Elk.

An example of unfair trade practices is the currency value of coffee from framers to the drinkers of coffee in trendy coffee shops, mark up value from bean to consumer 1000%, that's not right.

Cafe direct have tried to address this imbalance by paying a decent price for a decent product directly to those who produce the bean. It's one of the few capatilist organisations that has incorporated a fair days work into a fair trade market, I hope more companies join the band wagon, perhaps they have, it's been a while since I was made aware of the exploitation issues in trade practice.

Bozo really there's nothing wrong with trying to address imbalance, it's hardly what I'd call self righteous posturing, more like finally alowing a market that is fair by supporting it; what about fairness bothers you or the big players in business I wonder?

 

[BCLG100]

Moderator Action: Doesn't the post look better without all the foul language in it? Your warning with all the others on page 3 of this thread. - TY
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

know your not meant to comment on mod actions but it actually does read quite well, not that i saw it before, for obvious reasons.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I don't blame the country of America here.

Really? How interesting. Lets review your OP then to refresh our memory

I finally watched the movie "Lord of War" this evening. And at the end of the movie I cried. This does not happen often. But tonight I openly wept for the victims of my countries "foreign policy". I shed tears for the many hundreds of thousands of good, and innocent people who have died needlessly because of my nation. I have long suffered with the knowledge that my nation uses criminals, terrorists and mass murderers to further its commercial and political interests. I have known of this for a long time. But it was the ending of this movie that finally triggered me to openly weep over these atrocious crimes against humanity.

So according to you, the above statement isnt blaming America? Id certainly love to hear you when you ARE blaming the 'country of America'. But wait, theres more:

The US gov has been hiring mercenaries that slaughter innocents for a long time. Back in the early 1900s the US sponsered South American terrorist/mercenary/murderers to protect the economic interests of private American companies (such as the Dole and Chiquita Banana companies). This crap could have started earlier for all I know. But I do know that my countries government employed mercenaries that slaughtered entire villages of Good people so that a few US companies could make their money.

How do you know all the people we killed were good? Unless, youre assuming theyre good because they arent American.

And if the deaths of innocent foreigners does not move you, then you should know that American corporations and the US gov is directly responsible for the untimely deaths of tens, and perhaps hundrends of thousands of your fellow Amercians.

Oh. We dont only kill 'good and innocent' foreigners, our government colludes with the evil corporations to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans too. They sure are busy, I wonder where they find the time to make coffee.

This has got to stop. People are suffering and dying so that a few can make obscene profit. How the hell can you people continue to buy your products from Dole Banana or Maxel House Coffee? These corps literally destroy the lives, and end the lives of good hardworking people. And these corps do this for the sake of money! If you purchase their products; then you are an accomplice to these heinous crimes.

So not only is the US government and American corporations guilty of genocide and sundry crimes against humanity, also the vast majority of American citizens are also guilty of those crimes as well. You sure youre American? You cant be, youre much too good to be an American.

Know who you support when you spend your dollars. Don't give your money to the rapers and pillagers such as Maxwell House or Dole Banana. Let your wallet cast your vote. Stop buying from the Walmarts and McDonalds, and the Maxwell Houses and the Hersheys of the world. Buy from, and support the people! Let the corporate pigs die on the vine for lack of sustenance!

All of the many thousands of Americans who are employed by Walmart, McDonalds, Maxwell House and Hershey arent people. No, theyre pigs who you want to die.

Look White Elk, if you want to make an America bashing thread (which youve clearly done) just be honest about it. If you really want to raise awareness about the fair trade movement, dont pollute it with a hate filled screed against the country of your birth, the country where you live, and the country that provides you with one of the best standards of living in human history ( and I dont want to hear that it provides you that high standard of living because of all the 'good and innocent' foreigners it slaughters, if you really believed that, youd leave the country immediately, so since youre still here enjoying all those benefits, its just self evident b.s.). Ive heard and read alot about the fair trade movement in recent months. Im all for it, there should be a fair trade equivelant for every single product on supermarket shelves, eventually I hope there will be. Not once in all that I heard and read about it did I hear hate speech directed at the United States and its people. You dont owe an apology to Americans, we're used to people hating us, you owe an apology to the fair trade movement.

BTW, Im still waiting for that list of foreign owned corporations that I should also boycott, along with the American ones.

 

[C~G]

Bozo, you should really change that title of yours "centrality of logic" because it seems to be such inadequate for descriping your true characteristics after this thread.

What I know about your posting otherwise this is like direct contrast to everything. I think you should reconsider.

Why on earth anyone cannot say even one bad thing about US without it being America-bashing? I would understand better if foreign like me would be doing but your own countryman? I guess living in US means loving it from top to the bottom in your heart and God save the one who decides to criticize it's ways of living in some ways. Wake up, United States isn't perfect.

Lord of War was quite good movie in overall pointing out the hypocrisy of our world and how capitalism drives people to measures that cannot be justified from any other perspective but from the business end of things. For me it was partly movie about US because capitalism works as driving force of it's progress and this progress is idealised to happen only through different kind of money making schemes. Make life and name for yourself, so you can reach the American Dream. However it isn't issue solely of US but same goes to other especially western countries as well.

Even though I would have liked that the main character should have been more of ordinary fellow rather than he was demonized to be drug user and egoistic. Ordinary and nice people with only orientation to be "winners" in life push the same agenda as the character in this movie. In that sense the movie failed because it couldn't reach really the idea that the man in question could be you or me just wanting to achieve something because that he was taught of doing. He didn't want to be zero like his brother so he started to be merchant. Like many already pointed out it's our conscious actions as consumers and citizens that make things happen in reality. So I don't see anything wrong in that if White Elk was touched by a movie and wanted to make people see how it changed his viewpoint.

For White Elk, it seems to me that the american dream is over.
It was time to wake up.

In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.
H. L. Mencken

 

[Bozo Erectus]

C~G, do you believe that its possible to discuss the fair trade movement without calling the American government, American corporations and the American people raping, pillaging mass murdering greedy pigs?

 

[C~G]

C~G, do you believe that its possible to discuss the fair trade movement without calling the American government, American corporations and the American people raping, pillaging mass murdering greedy pigs?

Yes, of course.
And I do know what you mean by that.
That is what I'm saying, you all are getting overly emotional about the issue. Or maybe that is exactly what people should do?
Being logical, calm and cool doesn't mean you are right.

White Elk got emotional from watching the movie and decided to react. I don't want to put words into his mouth but I guess he felt very strongly and that he decided after watching the film do something about the issues rather than sit and play it cool.

I'm part of western culture and I can admit that I'm greedy pig.
We all are.
But it's different what we are and what we are going to do about it.
White Elk just noticed that Emperor has no clothes and felt he should maybe inform others about it.
Let me say that it seems in US everything has to do with patriotism. So if you want to people to notice your message it's better to be written into star-spangled banner.

In overall I'm rather sceptical about the whole fair trade movement really because I don't see people changing unless there's stronger emotional bond towards those who suffer from our actions than from what we get out of our consuming habits. And because it seems that even the brightest of people are extremely hard to convince (don't look any further than this thread) how we are ever going to change the minds of those that live only in the world of cable-TV?

I'm such cynical fellow that I don't see it happening.
It doesn't mean I don't do anything about it, quite the contrary.
Some people just live like zombies until someone opens their grave to notify about the amount of worms that have crawled in without anyone noticing.

But I guess we all said enough already. Some things never change.

 

[El_Machinae]

Maxwell House is owned by the same people who swore (under oath) that they didn't think that cigarettes were bad for people.

Not sure I'd trust them to make any product.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

C~G, in many parts of Europe today, except for soccer, its considered to be old fashioned and sort of in poor taste to be patriotic. Most Americans love their country, and love their own people. If you want to convince Americans to get involved in a good cause like the fair trade movement, my advice would be to refrain from calling Americans, the companies they work for, and their government raping, pillaging, mass murdering greedy pigs who deserve to die. Thats why I think that if he really cares about fair trade for poor farmers around the world, and would like to win over new people to the fair trade movement, he should leave the public outreach to someone else.

Is that really so difficult to understand?

BTW, Ive bumped this thread numerous times, and I have yet to hear anything other than 'good for you White Elk!' or 'shame on you Bozo!' Does anyone actually want to begin an adult discussion about the Fair Trade movement?

 

[Narz]

All of the many thousands of Americans who are employed by Walmart, McDonalds, Maxwell House and Hershey arent people. No, theyre pigs who you want to die.

No one is OWED a job in this country. They can find new ones.

That's like saying. "We can't abolish the slave trade! What about all those hard working men who run the slave ships and sell at the markets! Huh, what of them? Think of their families! Think of the costs to our prized American cotton industry.".

Judging a situation in terms of jobs instead of the wellbeing of people has always struck me as quite idiotic and shortsighted.

Bozo, you know White Elk's got a point. You do to - name calling ususally doesn't work and pushes people away (as PETA should also learn). However, that doesn't discount his point and you know it. You're being needlessly reactionary.

 

[C~G]

C~G, in many parts of Europe today, except for soccer, its considered to be old fashioned and sort of in poor taste to be patriotic.

Not in my country.
However there is many kind of patriotism. And as White Elk mentioned he felt it was his duty to make a stand about issue that bothered him about US. And one thing I learned from american history is that you can be american even if you criticize your country and it's people. Must be something to do with free speech and such. But I guess the shock value of way how White Elk put it out was too much for you.

would like to win over new people to the fair trade movement, he should leave the public outreach to someone else.

Is that really so difficult to understand?

Of course not. But you're saying almost that his reaction is somehow twisted. I think the issue is much more complicated than he makes us understand but at the same time I'm ready to defend his emotional response to the issues involved.

What I saw from your messages before it was your own emotional response to the fact that he called you all pigs that should be killed rather than your desire to make him talk about fair trade in more calm fashion.

BTW, Ive bumped this thread numerous times, and I have yet to hear anything other than 'good for you White Elk!' or 'shame on you Bozo!' Does anyone actually want to begin an adult discussion about the Fair Trade movement?

Adult discussion that ends into hugging each other how much we all love our capitalist way of living and the governments that support it whether it is happening in good old US or in Europe and at the same time giving promises of being ready to change our living ways a small tear in our eye which we all forget tomorrow?

No thank you. I'll pass this time. But I'll keep it in my mind for later.

 

[blackheart]

Most Americans love their country, and love their own people. If you want to convince Americans to get involved in a good cause like the fair trade movement, my advice would be to refrain from calling Americans, the companies they work for, and their government raping, pillaging, mass murdering greedy pigs who deserve to die.

So he makes an emotional outburts and you respond with yet another emotional outburst. Two wrongs DO make a right

Thats why I think that if he really cares about fair trade for poor farmers around the world, and would like to win over new people to the fair trade movement, he should leave the public outreach to someone else.

I think White Elk was just trying to point out that there are other facets to the economy that most Americans don't see or want to admit.

BTW, Ive bumped this thread numerous times, and I have yet to hear anything other than 'good for you White Elk!' or 'shame on you Bozo!' Does anyone actually want to begin an adult discussion about the Fair Trade movement?

It's hard to discuss anything logically with anyone in an adult-like manner after the spasmatic and extreme reactions received.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No one is OWED a job in this country. They can find new ones.

Of course, I never said anyone was owed a job.

That's like saying. "We can't abolish the slave trade! What about all those hard working men who run the slave ships and sell at the markets! Huh, what of them? Think of their families! Think of the costs to our prized American cotton industry.".

Farmers in Africa and elsewhere arent our slaves. You shouldnt belittle the plight of real slaves, by calling free men who farm their land in their own countries 'slaves'.

Judging a situation in terms of jobs instead of the wellbeing of people has always struck me as quite idiotic and shortsighted.

Its idiotic to be more concerned about the well being of your family, your friends, and your neighbors, than you are about the wellbeing of nameless faceless strangers in another country? Maybe in a book it seems idiotic, but out in the real world, its the most natural thing in the world

Bozo, you know White Elk's got a point.

He's got a fragment of a point. Bringing higher profits to small farmers in the developing world isnt about trashtalking the American people. Thats not serious, it doesnt help the cause of the farmers, its just kid stuff. In some circles, it makes the person spreading hate speech against Americans popular, but it does absolutely nothing to help the farmers who we supposedly are so concerned about here. Thats because America is a very important country to win over to Fair Trade, if the goal is to have a real impact on the lives of farmers in the developing world. Anti-American hate speech isnt going to accomplish that.

You're being needlessly reactionary.

Narz, come on man. How can you possibly read the OP, and then call ME a reactionary? Do you realize that youre only arguing with me about his anti Americanism, and not about Fair Trade? So then whats the issue here, how evil America is, or how cool it would be to help out poor farmers in the developing world?