ID and evolution in science.

Good science has no fear of criticism, it embraces it becuase that is at heart what good science is all about, falsifying and building better theories. In this case as they are trying to work with science, I can only see this as being beneficial, if we had anything to fear we would despise them, but we feel we don't, wrong or right, that is science.

I agree on that point, but would point out that there exist more than one kind of criticism. ID, as it pretains to biology, is neither a constructive nor honest critism. The nonconstructive part doesn't matter, but the dishonest part does. IDist often make claims without justification or substance (in fact every one of their claims that make a substiantial claim has been disproved), conjure up theories with no honest attempt to test them, use fake or misleading credentials, and make false claims about real scientists and their results.
 
I can't imagine how anyone thinks that they will find non-causal events, and then be able to use them to form a theory. It boggles my mind.

I read the articles!

The gist seems to be that New Scientist predicts that they're trying to get official publications that they can bring to court in future cases; very much continuing the 'wedge strategy'.

While Sidhe is correct, that this will strengthen some of the science (notably, they'll discover minor details which then need to be counter-explained), we don't know if it's really productive. I understand that all knowledge is useful and all knowledge is worthy of knowing, but there is still opportunity cost. Right now, biologists are working on things that they find interesting, useful, or practical. That's great. However, by continually drawing focus (and need of discreditation), we're drawing scientists from what they know best, to what they don't really care about.

And any refutation will be done just to keep the wedge from growing.

I appreciate that they're looking to do actual science, and I like that they're working on improving our knowledge; but I don't trust the people in charge of the purse strings. They seem to be very motivated to destroy, which is always troubling.
 
saying god did it is not a scientific answer.

thus far it looks like they're trying to poke holes in evolutionary theory, but that's a logical fallacy in itself because disproving the theory of evolution will do nothing to prove "intelligent design"
 
I won't mind it so much if they could be honest about the research work, but i suppose i expect them to try to fit the results to the mould in their minds. There are propably 100s of crackpot theories being researched out there which could bear the same scrutiny as ID, but they would not be included as any legitimate curiculum because they do not have the fundings and support from a large enough group of people.
 
There are two sides, there is science and the abandonment of reason. ID is Creationism with a glossy exterior.

Indeed, Intelligent Design is not scientific in the least. There is no evidence for a creator to exist, so an application of Occam's razor quickly removes this hypothesis.
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not. They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.

According to my studies the scientists know just about every detail about a simple single cell. The argument between ID and evolution could be solved in short while if those knowledgable scientist would just assemble, from scratch, a copy of a simple cell.

Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

Just to assemble the necessary proteins for a cell would be monumental, and if they did, they would have only a tiny part of a cell's material and no place to put it.

To assemble a viable cell the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

PS: This same process, without human help, would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit that. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.

To this, I say, show us a working proto cell and we will believe you.
Come on, it's 2007, surely with all the brains looking at this problem you can do it. But of course, we both know it is impossible. So don't waste your time.
 
To assemble a cell that would live the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

PS: This same process would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit it. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.
Never have I heard your theory nor have I heard any "scientist" admit it.
 
ID is pseudo-science. Having a theory is all well and good, but science is about the interplay of theory and observation, if theory is not supported by observation it gets modified or thrown out. The 'science' of ID is non-scientific for the simple reason that it does not do this. It has a TRUTH it wants to prove at all costs, there is no way to modify the hypothesis, it is God exists or nothing. This leads to an inevitable distortion of the science it purports to use that is no more honest than claiming the geologic column is evidence for a global flood, contrary evidence is ignored, and the whole bastardised package they come up with is sold to the gullible with the claim that it has a scientific stamp of approval. Sickening.
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not. They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.

According to my studies the scientists know just about every detail about a simple single cell. The argument between ID and evolution could be solved in short while if those knowledgable scientist would just assemble, from scratch, a copy of a simple cell.

Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

Just to assemble the necessary proteins for a cell would be monumental, and if they did, they would have only a tiny part of a cell's material and no place to put it.

To assemble a viable cell the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

PS: This same process, without human help, would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit that. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.

To this, I say, show us a working proto cell and we will believe you.
Come on, it's 2007, surely with all the brains looking at this problem you can do it. But of course, we both know it is impossible. So don't waste your time.

What does any of this have to do with the Theory of Evolution? The Theory does not lay out a 12 step process for the creation of life. It merely explains how life got so diverse, assuming that life already existed.

We have the Theory of Gravity. Can we duplicate gravity? Can we create gravitons and create anti-gravity? We can't. By your logic this means that the Theory of Gravity must be false.

Your reasoning is flawed.
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not. They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.

According to my studies the scientists know just about every detail about a simple single cell. The argument between ID and evolution could be solved in short while if those knowledgable scientist would just assemble, from scratch, a copy of a simple cell.

Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

Just to assemble the necessary proteins for a cell would be monumental, and if they did, they would have only a tiny part of a cell's material and no place to put it.

To assemble a viable cell the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

PS: This same process, without human help, would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit that. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.

To this, I say, show us a working proto cell and we will believe you.
Come on, it's 2007, surely with all the brains looking at this problem you can do it. But of course, we both know it is impossible. So don't waste your time.

You seem to underestimate the capabilities of over 1,000,000,000 years, and a whole Earth sized test tube filled with chemicals the early Earth had. Correct me if I am wrong, not many governments are willing to finance such a construction, and are willing to wait that long for their results.

And obviously, the first cell is much much more simple than the most simple of life today. Not to mention that the chemical properties seem to dictate parts of cells forming spontaniously, with the phospholipids automatically forming a bilayer when placed in water, and can, and does form "sacks" of water as well. Not to mention that things to self assemble without help of cellular machinery (virus parts, once built, they self assemble into viruses)

And other news, this is abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution would work even if aibogenesis is wrong. Evolution does not care how life started, just that there is life.
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not. They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.
We do not "believe" in evolution. It is not a "faith". Why should I trust you over the scientific community? What would the scientific community have to gain by promoting a theory if it was false? Why just question evolution but never gravity or the other theories?

According to my studies the scientists know just about every detail about a simple single cell. The argument between ID and evolution could be solved in short while if those knowledgable scientist would just assemble, from scratch, a copy of a simple cell.

Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

I can't build a watch from scratch yet I don't assume watches are miracles.

But I guess in the end, when you don't understand something it must be God, while when I don't understand something I try to learn it myself, or take the advices of people who know better than me.


But of course, we both know it is impossible. So don't waste your time.

Wow, you actually know better than the whole scientific community :goodjob: Please tell us when you get the Nobel prize.
 
You seem to underestimate the capabilities of over 1,000,000,000 years, and a whole Earth sized test tube filled with chemicals the early Earth had. Correct me if I am wrong, not many governments are willing to finance such a construction, and are willing to wait that long for their results.
There's a couple of white mice here and a bloke called Slartibartfast...
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not. They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.
Oh, the irony.

Perhaps you should do some private investigating, and learn that evolution has nothing to do with the question of how life started.
 
I suggest that those who cut down what the ID people are doing, do some private investigating. However, I know they will not.

I have already done some private investigating.

They have been so thouroughly indoctrinated in evolution that they have so great a faith in it that they believe that evolution is a science that has been proven.

Nothing is ever proven in science.

According to my studies the scientists know just about every detail about a simple single cell. The argument between ID and evolution could be solved in short while if those knowledgable scientist would just assemble, from scratch, a copy of a simple cell.

Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

Just to assemble the necessary proteins for a cell would be monumental, and if they did, they would have only a tiny part of a cell's material and no place to put it.

To assemble a viable cell the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

It's a little more complicated than that. Not many scientists think that the first living organism was a cell that just fell into place. Darwinian evolution can take effect as soon as something is able to self-replicate with some copying errors. Cells developed long after the first self-replication.

In the 1960s, a famous experiment showed the RNA from the QB virus would self-replicate if placed in a solution containing the necessary nucleotides and a replication protein from the same virus. During the experiment, copying errors occured, and the RNA rapidly evolved into one which was much more suited to its sole new role: self-replication. The new RNA, dubbed Spiegelman's Monster, was much more efficient at copying itself than the initial virus RNA.

A decade later, another, similar experiment was performed. A mixture containing free nucleotides and replication proteins was stimulated with QB RNA, which self-replicated. Astonishingly, though, it was found that the RNA would self-assemble and begin self-replicating (with copying errors) without a single strand of RNA being added.

Now, of course, there were no replication-aiding proteins wherever life first emerged. But that doesn't say much of anything. Proteins are a catalyst, and catalysts determine only the speed, not the direction, of chemical reactions. Self replication would have been painfully slow, but the first strands of DNA or RNA certainly had plenty of time on their hands.

The first self-replicating molecule probably wasn't very similar to conventional DNA or RNA. It may have had more bases than modern molecules do. Its composition would have been very much dictated by the primordial soup from which is first emerged. However, over time, molecules with more efficient compositions would have been able to out-produce and therefore out-compete their more primitive ancestors.

It's easy to understand how proteins would have arisen from self-replicating nucleic acids. Nucleic acids that produced proteins which helped them replicate even faster would have had an enormous production advantage over nucleic acids that did not. This advantage would have led them to out-compete the competition, and thus win the evolutionary struggle for survival.

It would have taken a long time for most of the components of cells to arise. The initial replication of life would have been a very arduous process, and would have been littered with failed "species." Scientists still aren't sure exactly where or how life arose, and it's still unclear how the first cells came about. But we know a lot more than we used to, and it's very clear that the first cells did not arise out of some chance conglomeration of molecules. Natural selection took over as soon as the first molecule made a copying error while replicating itself, and life progressed from there.

PS: This same process, without human help, would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit that. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.

I've never heard this before, but I think I have a useful counter-argument. Scientists believe cells to be the simplest living thing. How could anything but a cell be the first life form? That certainly doesn't mean that cells were created out of the blue, though.

To this, I say, show us a working proto cell and we will believe you.
Come on, it's 2007, surely with all the brains looking at this problem you can do it. But of course, we both know it is impossible. So don't waste your time.

Why should we bother trying to do that when we're reasonably certain that that's not how life began?
 
Of course they can't do this and NEVER will be able to do it. It literally takes a MIRACLE to make non-living chemical into a living cell.

This is what I love about pro ID'ers the fact that they take a statement assume one thing correlates to something else and then base a conclusion on it that is totally without any scientific merit. Yep folks we can't explain it, it must be magic :shake:

Even assuming we will never be able to make a cell is a waste of time, how on Earth can you possibly know that, your throwing out baseless statements and making conclusions based on them? I think it's unlikely with what we currently know, we don't know enough about the process itself, but what the article shows is we are getting closer and closer to putting a picture together to how the first proteins formed.

Give a mix of amino acids a few thousand years they become proteins, mix that up an provided a medium in which they can form long chains you have simple replicating devices, give that a few billion years and you have many srands of more complicated self replicating material which forms the basis to make other parts and so on.

So we can't do what it took billions of years to do, frankly as advanced as we are now I'd be satisfied with the how it happened, we can worry about the doing it ourselves in the future, for academic purposes, let's face it it's easier to let life do it's thing on it's own with maybe a little genetic rewriting. And as said evolution is meant to explain the origin of the species and it's diversification, not how life itself formed, but since you asked the question.

To assemble a viable cell the scientists would have to have all the components in one spot and have the cells outer membrane ready to instantly recieve the multitudinous contents. An extremely short delay would result in cell death.

PS: This same process, without human help, would have been necessary to make the first living cell, and even the evolutionists scientists will reluctently admit that. That is why they have POSTULATED a proto-cell as the first life form.
.

Your talking about the chicken and the egg dilema, since RNA is a sort of jack of all trades that can replecate material and form in itself, it has been suggested that simple prokaryotic(non nucleic bacteria) May have either evolved into eukaryotic cells, having both Ribosomes for manufacture of proteins, and Nucleic material fo self replication, instead of the RNA doing the work of both.

Or another theory is the that nucleic eukaryotic and prokaryotic life emerged from the same source and eventially they became symbiotically linked, forming the first Eukaryotic cells with Ribosomal material, which would of allowed for more complexity not only within a cell but for more diversity in itself.
 
There's a couple of white mice here and a bloke called Slartibartfast...

:lol:

No human government today in the universe of RL, not the universe of Hitch hiker's guild to the galaxy would finance such a project.
 
Evolutionists scientists know practically every part of a 'simple' cell. Let them assemble a cell in the Lab, from scratch, using 'parts' assembled from all the necessary vital chemicals. This will solve the debate, once and for all.

However, they cannot make a cell, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Yet the evolutionists claim that cells came into existence by chance, accidental encounters with a chemical soup, way back when!!! SHOW us the 'science' NOT the talk, and we will believe.

Jim
 
However, they cannot make a cell, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Yet the evolutionists claim that cells came into existence by chance, accidental encounters with a chemical soup, way back when!!!

No they don't. They claim that something that was self-replicating became more complex, to the point it became a proto-cell. Then it became even more complex, to the point that it was a cell. Self-replicating was happening before it was complex enough to be called alive.


SHOW us the 'science' NOT the talk, and we will believe.

No you won't. Past experience says that no matter how compelling the evidence, you will dismiss it, rather than believe it.
 
Evolutionists scientists know practically every part of a 'simple' cell. Let them assemble a cell in the Lab, from scratch, using 'parts' assembled from all the necessary vital chemicals. This will solve the debate, once and for all.

However, they cannot make a cell, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Yet the evolutionists claim that cells came into existence by chance, accidental encounters with a chemical soup, way back when!!! SHOW us the 'science' NOT the talk, and we will believe.

Jim

Actually scientists have taken cells and separated them into components that were clearly non-alive then put them back together again to make living cells.

Synthesis of a cell from its components is just a matter of engineering detail. Manipulating atoms is difficult but biochemists dont doubt that it will happen - and happen pretty soon.

Which part is impossible?
 
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