Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[Torugu]

I agree that the D'tesh are too powerful, but it's mostly them being unaffected by the health changes that have done that. Otherwise, they were nerfed.

Sorry, but that's just wrong.

I wrote a post in the balance thread about this shortly after 1.3 was released which was apparently overlooked. I'm not going to repeat what I said since it might make me sound like a jerk, instead just open up the civilopedia, go to the entry about crypts, add to the base yield all bonuses they get from techs, the +1P and +1C from wasteland and the +2C from haunted lands which are plentiful in D'Tesh lands and compare the yield to that of a lumbermill or any improved resource. Then do the same for pyres. Then consider that no player will ever have his capital surrounded by lumbermills.

If after doing that you still believe that the problem with the D'Tesh is that they don't suffer from the increased unhealth I'll gladly provide you with a savegame to compare a size 10 Obsidian Spire with a size 10 non-D'Tesh city. (A size even the worst capital should reach at some point of time.)

 

[Niveras]

Regarding Austrin and Lanun:

It always irked me that the Austrin seem to do way, way better at exploring than Lanun, particularly overseas, chiefly because of their access to pegasus. But not only that, their ability to send along only a recon unit, with their expedition ritual, and found a city virtually anywhere. This is compounded by the fact that the shore party that their naval units can spawn is a recon unit itself (probably with the intent to get better results from lairs/dungeons but with the side effect of being able to found settlements).

Some of this will be solved by balance/bug fixes (mages being a lair result even in early game, for example, and the ability for recon units to mount pegasi), but it still seems wrong that Austrin naval units are better at founding cities across bodies of water than the Lanun.

I'd like to see the Austrin lose their Shore Party ability, give it to Lanun naval units (the naval unit would also gain a temporary debuff to indicate its reduced crew complement), and allow the Lanun Shore Party unit to create a city directly. This is not particularly "realistic" given a shore party is not nearly numerous enough or well-supplied enough to start a city (assuming there are even women among the crew...), which could be reflected in a negative building that is eventually cleared - perhaps by bringing a real settler, or simply over time, as migrants or traders settle in the city on their own (abstracted from the trading routes in the new city). Alternatively, allow the shore party to spawn a specialized fort that can eventually upgrade into a city after a couple dozen turns, rather than creating the city directly. (Incidentally, if possible the naval unit should retain its negative crew promotion until it returns to a functional city to recrew, or if the shore party returns to the ship that spawned it.)

While admittedly the Lanun are less about exploration and more about plying the high seas, it just doesn't sit right with me that another civ would be better at settling coastal areas and islands than the Lanun themselves. It's not a huge issue really, but one that I think could help give Lanun a little more flavor.

 

[Valkrionn]

I have plans to make the Lanun the best at settling coastal areas, at least amongst the land-based civs.

They involve Pirate Fleets.

 

[Sjru]

@Sjru
i didn´t made me really clear.
I meant when Chalid or Yvain would get more than 1 times a game Phoenix Blood promotion they would be obviously to powerfull, and Life manna is not a manna wich is often used in games besides Turn Undead spell.
They are already to powerfull with their 2 affinity.

I was suggesting a Hero for a civ that doesn't not exist. Could be an Agnostic civ, who knows...

And regarding affinity: They should be capped to some point, is true that those units could get OP pretty easily with the right resources. (Specially the Djinn summon)

I have plans to make the Lanun the best at settling coastal areas, at least amongst the land-based civs.

They involve Pirate Fleets.

I'd like to see that, but actually the Lanun fail at everything because seafaring is almost useless (They hardly found a pirate port and mantain it, Krakens often pillage them). That's why I always prevent them from entering my game.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd like to see that, but actually the Lanun fail at everything because seafaring is almost useless (They hardly found a pirate port and mantain it, Krakens often pillage them). That's why I always prevent them from entering my game.

Krakens do not pillage them in the base game... Or if they do, they shouldn't be. Seeing as Krakens don't spawn until Astronomy, when you are well able to defend against them.

And seafaring will not remain useless, we just aren't teaching the AI too much until 1.5 as the whole setup will change (both units and techs).

 

[dunedainjedi]

The Lanun(at least in FFH, I never play them anymore), have always been about having the best non dwarven economy. The pirate thing is just bravado to keep the Hippus from robbing them.

In theory the Lanun are the most effective seafaring civ, but the AI is currently(and has always been) unable to launch attack across water. Actually they're bad at anything that doesn't involve marching a SoD around. Consequently if you want them to be challenging, you need to play Pangea or a map with a high cohesion setting. And if you're really dieing to play the Lanun, you need to realize that their strong points(when played by a human, the AI sucks with them) is the economic and subsequent tech boosts.

Anyway that's my 2 cents on the Lanun.

 

[Viatos]

Sorry, but that's just wrong.

I have to agree with this. I generally play on Emperor, but I can play D'tesh on diety no problem and steamroll everything without significant difficulty. I stopped even using Thanatos. I just open the tech chart, click Necromancy, then click Strength of Will. They have the best tile yields, the most powerful arcane line (the Amurites are a joke here, in all honesty), native terraforming that sucks for everyone else, immunity to health and unhappiness, mana-stacking strategy, invisible freaking scouts, immunity to the most common damage types (Death-summons and Assassins, good luck!), and they are rewarded for crushing others by buckets of population.

I think nobody says anything about the D'teshi 'cause everybody loves the D'teshi, but their starting concept was pretty much OP. I love them too, but it's way too obvious atm.

Compare and contrast the Scions, who are completely unplayable atm - unhealth still matters to them, their flavorstart is in the desert too, their scouts are very visible and movespeed 1, their casters have to survive combat to be special, and their terraforming is now unusable because it kills them. Their advantages against other civs are balanced because they need to get at least waist-deep into every tech line and still finish at least one or two completely. Also, they can't even get their special terrain until they get Mend Nature. Back when nobody even thought about unhealth, they were the only civ who had to manage it - and they still can't make use of Pelemoc to get pop from the AI, they have to fight a war without strength 5 Adepts that gain XP at the speed of light. Now they just cry.

Oh yeah, the D'teshi naturally form Haunted Lands too, just to add insult to injury there.

 

[Sjru]

Krakens do not pillage them in the base game... Or if they do, they shouldn't be. Seeing as Krakens don't spawn until Astronomy, when you are well able to defend against them.

And seafaring will not remain useless, we just aren't teaching the AI too much until 1.5 as the whole setup will change (both units and techs).

Normally, yes, but Fall Under still makes a mess, and I wouldn't dare to tear such wonderful modmod.

 

[Valkrionn]

Then part of your issue is with Fall Under, not RifE, and thus should be left out of the post.

 

[Viatos]

Constellation event sacred to Dagda, granting Lawful civilizations a production boost (free) or a Great Craftsman (50 gold.)

Constellation event sacred to Tali, granting Chaotic civilizations a culture boost (free) or a Great Bard (50 gold).

 

[EugeneStyles]

II generally play on Emperor, but I can play D'tesh on diety no problem and steamroll everything without significant difficulty.

Yeah, I agree that D'Tesh is pretty much easy-mode. We'll see what it looks like in 1.31, but I fear they'll still be overpowered even when other civs can better deal with unhealth.

The problem with D'Teshi as I see it is that they have too many unique mechanics. Fallow and gains pop from crushing opponents is pretty cool, and not too OP on its own. Though I think the population caps are too high. In my D'Teshi game, I have had trouble reaching pop caps on any cities because each AI city defeated tends to give me a settler and like 2 slaves. Unless I just camp an Assassin or two next to a city and continuously destroy defenders while purposely not taking the city, I never get enough resistance to really build up my slave population. Which sounds like a problem ("can't get enough slaves to reach pop caps"), but is really "crushes AI too easily" and "doesn't particularly need to get cities that big anyway".

They don't use most normal resources, but turning them into infused ash is the same as most civs improving the resource, and gives great yields plus bonuses to research/slaves. So instead of "can't use cows" being a drawback, "turns cows into cash" is another bonus.

Then they turn land into wasteland which is better for them than normal terrain, but horrible for everyone else. On top of that, Haunted Lands for +1 awesomeness spreads automatically.

Then they've got D'Tesh affinity which thankfully was toned down but is still very strong.

As if that wasn't enough, have some invisible recon units (let's not even talk about invisible and +1 Str for Thanatos). To me, this is totally unnecessary for them and kind of craps all over one of the Sidar's defining features. Invisible commanders making forts is extremely OP, but I believe it's already being addressed for 1.31. Also, being able to sac a Skeleton for a million XP for your fort commanders.

That just seems like way too much for one civ. Am I missing other stuff?

 

[Sarisin]

Someone help me out here...

How in the world do you go to war with the d'Tesh?

I've sent my stack of about 8 units into their territory and every one of them has been spooked, damaged, or barbarianized by the Haunted Lands.

I've mentioned before that the Haunted Lands feature in RiFE is a little overpowered in that it has a very high possibility of negatively affecting your units without an early way to get rid of the Haunted Lands. Losing a high XP veteran unit just because it gets the Estranged promotion and goes barb (almost all do) is a tough pill to take. You really have to micromanage your units' movements to avoid those tiles and there are cases when they simply are unavoidable.

In this case giving the Workers back the capability to remove Haunted Lands as they had in 1.23 would help, but I'm not sure it would when you go off to fight the undead.

I realize Dispel Magic works, but that comes much later in the game.

So, what do you do when you get an early war with the d'Tesh to avoid all your units getting smacked by the Haunted Lands?

 

[EugeneStyles]

I've sent my stack of about 8 units into their territory and every one of them has been spooked, damaged, or barbarianized by the Haunted Lands.

In this case giving the Workers back the capability to remove Haunted Lands as they had in 1.23 would help, but I'm not sure it would when you go off to fight the undead.

I realize Dispel Magic works, but that comes much later in the game.

Personally, I support making Sanctify remove Haunted Lands. Sanctify is so useless most of the time and only requires a Life I Adept or a Priest (I forget if all priests get Sanctify or most of them, or if I'm misremembering and it's only a few of them...).

 

[azzedar]

well, i like the d'tesh but, as some have posted already, also think theyre a bit op, which is, i think, mostly because of their recon line.

what about going deeper into that sustained invisibility concept:
giving their invisi a -x%chance to capture a slave, whereas the x is enough to down all chances of getting a slave (should be easily done via promotion).
this would do several things: first it makes the dteshi player to decide whether to send his units harass and do some guerilla tactics OR go on a slave hunt while, second, still leaving a gap for tactics: aka, you need to level up your recons using invisi till theyre strong enough to attack openly capturing slaves (which should hopefully delay their civ pop increase a bit, therefor also productivity etc)
afaik invisi can already be turned off manualy for a unit, so this shouldnt be a problem
third, invisi for recon overall could be given a min level (not more than 3 or 4 i guess), which will inevitably lead to losing some recon units on their way up, before you can even start collecting slaves.

 

[odalrick]

I've sent my stack of about 8 units into their territory and every one of them has been spooked, damaged, or barbarianized by the Haunted Lands.

Fairly certain Courage blocks all ill effects from Haunted Lands.

 

[Sarisin]

Fairly certain Courage blocks all ill effects from Haunted Lands.

Really? I'll have to test this out as I just researched Divination and can build the Spirit node.

However, again, I am around Turn 400 in my game and wars with the d'Tesh can easily come early in the game before you have Spirit mana (assuming you have a node available).

Still, if this is correct, Spirit mana has become A LOT more valuable in 1.30.

 

[Torugu]

Nerfing the recon line and reducing the negative effects of haunted lands might be good ideas, but for that to have any effect on the balance of the D'Tesh you must first nerf their economy to make them play in the same league as the other civs.

You should try playing a mp game with the D'Tesh for once. last time I did I played against a firend of mine who was playing the Calabim. I discovered Mithril Working just a few turns before he discovered Bronce Working, admittedly he didn't rush the melee line (his tech path was something like "base techs -> Corruption of the Spirit -> a few early game techs -> Bronce Working") but neither did I, playing Thanatos I first rushed Strength of the Will, then Animal Mastery and Astronomy (to deal with a kraken-lightning elemental that was casting Tsunami where I wanted to found my fourth city) before I finally started teching the melee line past Smelting.
Mind you, this was a multiplayer game against a equally strong human player, excuses like "The AI can't deal with the barbs and the unhealth" won't work here. And the Calabim aren't exactly the Clan or the Doviello either.

 

[azzedar]

well, as far as i remember the calabim have no elder councils (and yes: that alone makes a big difference), later no alchemy labs and are overall far away from beeing a good tech civ. bad comparison so, but i can understand your point.
i for my part play dtesh regularly (mostly because you dont have to mind wether your starting point is good or bad,...)

some suggestions for economy nerfs from my side (as i dislike tocriticize without giving suggestions, even if theyre crap):

- reduce great person points. "remember that famous undead brainless architect who constructed this wonderful, epic..." uhmm yeah... yeah, they are sentient people in the dtesh empire. but i guess thats a bunch of bootlicking necros, people who concentrate all their effort on getting to the top of the hierachy.
- a debuff decreasing maintenance (most of them are undead...) but decreasing production too. undead slaves are a cheap but incompetent work force.
i think of
D'Tesh Settlement:
-20% Maintenance, -20% Production, -20% Great Persons

 

[Sjru]

Scions should get a %awakened bonus under Golden Age, don't you think? Currently they don't!
Please address this issuea

 

[Torugu]

well, as far as i remember the calabim have no elder councils (and yes: that alone makes a big difference), later no alchemy labs and are overall far away from beeing a good tech civ. bad comparison so, but i can understand your point.

He wasn't anywhere near sorcery so the lack of alchemy labs didn't affect him, but I admit that the that the lack of elder councils didn't exactly work in his favour. Still I'm fairly sure he did pick up Writing at some point and the Calabim do have libraries so the most important of all science buildings was in place.

I think the most important nerf for the D'Tesh would be to reduce the yields from thier improvement (I have stated that a few times already) just take a look at the yields of the pyre, it's like a mine and a town on the same tile, probably even better than that on a haunted hill. And there are going to be a lot of pyres inside the +3 radius of your cities even if you don't take kelp into account.