Immortal, Augustus: Axe Rush? Praetorian Rush?

[TheMeInTeam]

Best bet by far would have been AG --> AH for the cow and to find horse. If you hit fast before they get up rax/totems Sitting Bull is no better vs horse units than any other protective civ (dog soldiers are a liability against them). That said prats will work if you time the hit well and don't run afoul of like 6 units in a city.

 

[yyeah]

Why Construcion ?
Becouse he will have v powerfull army, he can take out Alex with it as well.

When with Prests (witch are weaker then Dog Soldiers becosue you promote them to CR and you will face DS with shock promotion), ok i agree that this is definetly possible to do it but i supose taht you will loose 80% of your army, you will choop out all forest not haveing math and just overall this is huge waste of , and no tech to trade...

I just dont like idea rushing Prets vs SB when its possible to Oracle Construcion.
Yes only becouse of 2 gold start its is possible, iam not saying taht you will get it but at least its worth to try especialy on IMM.

 

[Seraiel]

This may be a n00b question, but why will he face DS with shock promotion?

I also think that losing 80% of the army is not realistic. DS are the worst enemies he can get, and against those, he'll have at least 30-50% chances. I don't think it will be many though, and Praets vs. PRO-Archers are something above 90% afaik. If timing the attack with a city-expansion of SB, I assume that there won't be more than 2-3 Archers in the first cities, he'll maybe encounter 2-3 Dog Soldiers in the later cities aswell, but with 10 Praets + reinforcements it should be quite easy.

And I think you overestimate Construction in this situation. Praets are more than 50% stronger than Catapults. Catapults ofc. make it easier, but if they come at the cost of earlier Praets, it's a tough decision.

 

[Izuul]

I don't think you would run into many (if any) shock Dogs, and i really doubt you would have to face many Dogs in general. Seraiel is right, it will be more archers than anything.

Also, promoting Preats to CR isn't something you should automatically do. Combat I actually gives better odds against archers than CR due to the relative base strength of the units. Here its better to give a 10% bonus to your 8 units rather than removing 20% from 3 archers that will already have a ton of bonuses. CR might be better long-term as you face stronger units and reach higher levels of CR, but Combat early is stronger and much more versatile.

I also agree with TMIT which is why i like the AG > AH > Writing > Alpha path then trading for BW and IW if going for Praets. If AH reveals horses early it gives another solid option, HAs.

 

[Pangaea]

Post the starting save (at least if there actually is iron accessible) and people can have a go with both approaches

 

[Todelotti]

...something like a 1500 BC 10 Praet rush...

Well, that's some concrete number I can work along as a measure for my progress! I hope some day I will have such a feeling for timing as well.


I haven't decided yet what to do. But a few questions:

- I guess I really shouldn't chop all or a lot of my forests before I have Math, right? For Math I could either trade or maybe bulb it via AH->Writing->Build Lib->Run Scientists until GS. Is that the right approach?

- If I should go for the Oracle is getting that Marble tile in the North a must? I will explore if there is sea food but even if, it still looks like a desperate place to settle as one of my first cities. I'm IND and the Oracle isn't expensive. Isn't that perhaps enough even without Marble?

- Being IMP, is it OK to start slow-building a Settler at size 3, maybe even before the current Warrior is finished? And then settling 1W of central Cow?

 

[yyeah]

Why do i think that he will face shock promo, becouse hes SB xDD and i think he will face shock at some point but well maybe i "overreact" becouse iam used to deity.

Maybe i do overestimate Construction, to be honest iam fan of Prets rush with AC.
AC isnt guy witch is good to oracle construcion.
But this map 2 gold start, lots of forest, SB as opponent just looks to me like its reasonable.

Post the starting save (at least if there actually is iron accessible) and people can have a go with both approaches

yeah

Proper approach for oracle constr. its like Izuul mentioned skip all and get writing 1st best leaders do to this are Cre ( duble prod. speed of Libary) witch starting techs are close to writing ( example - Hatty, Louis Cre, Ind starting techs agriculture,wheel with him Oracle Construcion isnt too hard even on deity).

You went BW 1st so its allrdy too late to run 2 GS and bulb math, and you have 2 gold start its better to work just on gold its huge reserch boost and you wont loose GP.

So becouse of that i would just try tech self tech allway there. I pref going AH -writing - math you will have early math choops witch can be used to like choop out Lib in capitol, or you can prechoop some forest and choop out Oracle as well.
So that how looks proper Oracle attempt in this case at lest i think so ...
You dont need Marble.

 

[Seraiel]

I haven't decided yet what to do. But a few questions:

- I guess I really shouldn't chop all or a lot of my forests before I have Math, right? For Math I could either trade or maybe bulb it via AH->Writing->Build Lib->Run Scientists until GS. Is that the right approach?

- If I should go for the Oracle is getting that Marble tile in the North a must? I will explore if there is sea food but even if, it still looks like a desperate place to settle as one of my first cities. I'm IND and the Oracle isn't expensive. Isn't that perhaps enough even without Marble?

- Being IMP, is it OK to start slow-building a Settler at size 3, maybe even before the current Warrior is finished? And then settling 1W of central Cow?

To rush, you will have to chop those Forests. Once you got Praets, you should aim for 1 Praet / turn during the build-up, so let Workers chop on 2/4T and on T3 + 4 you 2-pop-whip a Praet and finish the next one from the OF (no idea if that's possible, but that's what one does when Elepulting, and Praets are basically "the earlier and cheaper Elephants that can get CR" ) .

You don't need Marble for Oracle.

And if possible, you shouldn't slow-build a Settler, but grow to size 4 and 2-pop-whip it, because the bonus from IMP only applies to , but whips count as .

 

[FlyingSwan]

any chance of the save Todelotti?I think everyones wanting to put the theory into practice!

The reason I said about the marble was just the fact that its there-and its needed for construction, if a fish is nearby then you would plant a city on it or near it.I wouldnt make more than 2 citys anyway.Bieng industious its not essential though,but it would speed things up if its connected in time.Thats realy down to whether the AIs will trade sailing,or if we have enough worker turns for a road.

Tmits right though,HAs will work just as well if horses were revealed.

 

[Todelotti]

any chance of the save Todelotti?I think everyones wanting to put the theory into practice!

Of course! The save is attached to my opening post.

I just wanted to play a bit until I know the answer to the question if there is Iron or not. Don't look into the spoiler if you don't want to know the answer yet.

Spoiler :

Yes, there is Iron at the coast 1SE of the capital's east gold. 2E of that Iron is Fish. A second Iron is 2S of the central Gold.

 

[Seraiel]

Why do i think that he will face shock promo, becouse hes SB xDD and i think he will face shock at some point but well maybe i "overreact" becouse iam used to deity.

Sry, but I needed to quote this ^^ .

Even Deity-AIs must stick to the rules yyeah. They can produce 3 EXP troops from Barracks and for more, they usually need Feudalism or Theocracy just like the human

 

[reddishrecue]

Praetorian rush for sure. Tech too iron asap, then the wheel and start making combat 1 promoted praetorians.

 

[yyeah]

Sry, but I needed to quote this ^^ .

Even Deity-AIs must stick to the rules yyeah. They can produce 3 EXP troops from Barracks and for more, they usually need Feudalism or Theocracy just like the human

Barbs allso attack Ais ... dont they ?

On deity Ai just spam more units tahts why theres a bigger chance for C1 Shock axes not all of them offcourse but you are faceing them at some point.

If you telling me that you dont face C1 Shock Axes on Deity ... its a lie.

Played this map a bit.

Spoiler :

It was gamble to be honest preety late for oracle skiped wheel, becouse i should have connection through see after border pop in capitol ( with was in like 4turns .
I was connected but like 10 turns after weird.

This city was reinforced with 1 C1 shock DS and 1 C2 DS.

 

[Seraiel]

Barbs allso attack Ais ... dont they ?

On deity Ai just spam more units tahts why theres a bigger chance for C1 Shock axes not all of them offcourse but you are faceing them at some point.

If you telling me that you dont face C1 Shock Axes on Deity ... its a lie.

Played this map a bit.

Spoiler :

This city was reinforced with 1 C1 shock DS and 1 C2 DS.

Barbs are a difference, yes. I always play without them because of HoF, so "yes, I don't face Shock-Axes, and it's no lie" ^^ .

 

[Tatran]

Dog soldiers have a 100% bonus versus melee units.
I wonder what the math is when they defend or attack a praetorian unit.
Is the strength of the praetorian lowered to 4 (8/(1+1.00) when defending?

 

[yyeah]

So Seraiel dont try to make a full of me please becouse i know what iam talking about, even if my eng isnt good. And this map isnt HoF map, this isnt marathon, and you have barbs here, if you didnt notice on 1 ss in this post theres a violet "something" ... Bear, that probobly meens theres a bear xD so barbs are ON.

 

[Seraiel]

full = fool?

I'd never try that btw. yyeah. I just quoted the part in that post from you, because you play CIV for like 3-4 months to what you wrote, and now you already write "I'm used to Deity" . I didn't even knew, that you had won on Deity without reloading already, and even if you did, for me you're "used to Deity" if Deity is the only level you play and if you could beat the major number of games on it. Maybe it was simply hard for you to translate that you're currently playing Deity.

[EDIT]

And only 1/4 of the HoF is Marathon btw.

 

[Fippy]

Well imo your screenie shows why Praets only work better than Praets + Cats usually.
He has so many units in that city already cos they are part of an offensive stack, if you attack like 30 turns earlier with Praets those are all not there.
And Praets cost 40h only, i would rather lose some than wait for Cats 90% of the time

 

[Seraiel]

I smiled when reading that btw., but not with mean motives .

You're a Pro-n00b yyeah. You are new to CIV, but you got a lot of skill, probably from having been a good player in a different game. I also was a Pro-n00b when I came here, directly started on Deity and got my butt handed to me for until I played Incans. With Incans, I learned how to win on Deity, and after that, I switched to normal leaders (which was very difficult btw. and probably took half a year) and after having won Marathon with a non-Incan leader, I learned to play all the other speeds, which wasn't as difficult as people said btw.

You're directly playing non-Incan leaders on normal speed, that's why I suspect that you haven't won Deity without reloading yet. That doesn't mean that you're a bad player though, CIV4 Deity is the hardest I've ever found in all of my gaming, and I played MMORPGs with the best players of the EU.

 

[Tatran]

CIV4 Deity is the hardest I've ever found in all of my gaming

Wasn't civ3 Sid level, the hardest level of the whole series?
From what I remember the AI had 60% discounts.