India

[Henri Christophe]

Leaving that, I don't think including deities like Indra, Agni,Mitra would create any problem. Also there are many outrage free Mahabharat heroes like Arjuna,Bheem.

I remember Arjuna from the book Bhagavad Gita, he is the warrior who choice to hear Krishna. I also see in Wikipédia he is son of Indra.

I'm very cool with Arjuna be in the game, at least will well represent the Hindu culture. Because the last Heroes&Legends don't have any Indian.

 

[Patine]

Because the last Heroes&Legends don't have any Indian.

Although, this aspect is much less likely a snub against India and it's cultures and FAR moreso for the same reason they avoided having figures from the Abrahamic Monotheist religions - representing figures from currently practiced and observed religions in games about mythology and legendry is a MAJOR powderkeg. I'd imagine they decided to play it safe with ANY Hindu figures, for this reason.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

That's a concern. It's good to know that the Mahabharata is more open. I do think Arjuna belongs more in something like Heroes and Legends than as the Civ leader - India really has no shortage of great choices in recorded history (I will not name names, because then it's going to turn into a X CONFIRMED situation).

 

[Henri Christophe]

(I will not name names, because then it's going to turn into a X CONFIRMED situation).

Do names, that is the fun part of this kind of thread.
I still believe the 3 better to represent all India in Civ 7 is
-Mughal empire
-Chola empire
-Ahmednagar sultanate

I don't see how have two muslim is that problematic, we can do a eddition with more islamic diversity too with Civs as Al-Andaluz (The islamic Spain)
Choicing Ahmednagar because it's leader Malik Ambar. Who was a black enslaved from Ethiopia who become a Sultan in India!

 

[Yudhisthira]

I

Arjun wasn't king in Mahabharat also, only a great warrior assisting his elder brother & King Yuddhisthira in war & expansion. But speaking of heroes even Ramayana is quite open & full of amazing characters like Jatayu the eagle who died fighting Ravana or Garuda, the mount of Vishnu & currently used in insignia,emblem of many south east asian countries.

For leader, if they don't deblob India, then my choice would be to have Gupta monarch this time.
Particularly, Samudragupta as aggressive conqueror & unifier of most of India or Kumaragupta ,builder of Nalanda university, as more religious cultural path.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

Arjun wasn't king in Mahabharat also, only a great warrior assisting his elder brother & King Yuddhisthira in war & expansion. But speaking of heroes even Ramayana is quite open & full of amazing characters like Jatayu the eagle who died fighting Ravana or Garuda, the mount of Vishnu & currently used in insignia,emblem of many south east asian countries.

This could also open the door for Shakuni's dice, the Gandiva, and a host of other relics and artifacts to be included.

 

[Patine]

Ahmednagar sultanate

You are REALLY hung up on a small, bit player nation whom very few have heard of and is not considered by anyone (except seemingly you) at all iconic of Indian Civilization as a whole, and to push hard for them to be a HIGH PRIORITY - seemingly essential - for one of only three or four slots, without wavering or reconsideration. This seems odd and counter-intuitive - even to the point of being obtuse.

 

[Patine]

I don't see how have two muslim is that problematic, we can do a eddition with more islamic diversity too with Civs as Al-Andaluz (The islamic Spain)

Also, replacing Spain and/or Portugal outright with Al-Andalus might be, if not controversial, unpopular with typical Civ players as a choice.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You are REALLY hung up on a small, bit player nation whom very few have heard of and is not considered by anyone (except seemingly you) at all iconic of Indian Civilization as a whole, and to push hard for them to be a HIGH PRIORITY - seemingly essential - for one of only three or four slots, without wavering or reconsideration. This seems odd and counter-intuitive - even to the point of being obtuse.

First, obtuse is you.
Second, I don't have the right to have an opnion? If I like a civ as I like Ahmednagar I will advocate in pro of they.

Also, replacing Spain and/or Portugal outright with Al-Andalus might be, if not controversial, unpopular with typical Civ players as a choice.

I didn't say replacing, but have a separete civ for Al-Andaluz, I don't see why it should be controversial. They aren't lead by any semi mythical king.
And I would like to play a scenario of reconquista with Portugal and Spain versus Al-Andaluz.

 

[FishFishFish]

You have the right to your opinion but it is obvious that the only reason you have that opinion is because the leader is black. Everything else Ahmednagar can do, another Indian empire could do better. (Heck, you didn't even have an Ancient Indian civ on your list because you decided to go for two empires from the same time period instead!)

I do agree with Al-Andalus tho. They definitely deserve a spot in the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean if you want a great spread of Indian history with 3 separate civs I think these are the best, in my opinion:
Mauryan: Classical era, Buddhism under Ashoka
Chola: Medieval Era, Hinduism
Mughals: Early Modern (Renaissance), Islam

Gupta are also a strong 4th contender.
And yeah I'd take modern day Republic of India with Gandhi even over the Ahmednagar Sultanate.

 

[Henri Christophe]

You have the right to your opinion but it is obvious that the only reason you have that opinion is because the leader is black. Everything else Ahmednagar can do, another Indian empire could do better. (Heck, you didn't even have an Ancient Indian civ on your list because you decided to go for two empires from the same time period instead!)

Of course being black is an important thing of Malik Ambar, but it not just that who make me like him. Malik Ambar also fought and won battles against the might Mughal emperor Akbar, who was a very racist dude.
This photo show both, Malik Ambar headless and Akbar with a bow in his hand. Malik Ambar was the main rival of Akbar and that is great.

And about Unique Units, maybe other civs from India can have their own War elephants. But thinking in comparassion of other civs around the world, War Elephants are pretty unique unit.

I mean if you want a great spread of Indian history with 3 separate civs I think these are the best, in my opinion:
Mauryan: Classical era, Buddhism under Ashoka
Chola: Medieval Era, Hinduism
Mughals: Early Modern (Renaissance), Islam

Gupta are also a strong 4th contender.
And yeah I'd take modern day Republic of India with Gandhi even over the Ahmednagar Sultanate.

The problem to have Mauryan with the Mughals is they share some cities, how to solve this problem?
If Ahmednagar sultanate was choice replacin the Mauryans, they don't will have the problem of sharing cities.

 

[FishFishFish]

Are you just making stuff up now? The person in the portrait is Jahangir, not Akbar.

Malik Ambar was the main rival of Akbar and that is great.

No he isn't. If anyone is Akbar's "main rival" it is Maharana Pratap Singh of Mewar.

And about Unique Units, maybe other civs from India cna have their own War elephants. But thinking in comparassion of other civs around the world, War Elephants are pretty unique unit.

So your proposal for Ahmednagar's unique unit can be easily given to several other Indian empires and is not very unique?

We aren't comparing Ahmednagar to Tonga, we are comparing them to other Indian states.

The problem to have Mauryan with the Mughals is they share some cities, how to solve this problem?
If Ahmednagar sultanate was choice replacin the Mauryans, they don't will have the problem of sharing cities.

Look at the Civ V mod city list for the Mughals and Maurya for one second.

Why shouldn't Ahmednagar's cities just be apart of the Mughal city list? They were conquered by Aurangzeb anyway...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And about Unique Units, maybe other civs from India can have their own War elephants. But thinking in comparassion of other civs around the world, War Elephants are pretty unique unit.

You also have to save some for South East Asian civs like the Khmer, Siam or Burma.
I'd give the Maurya a War Elephant at least.

The Mughals at least could get a large artillery cannon/bombard, without getting an elephant unit. Or even a Zamburak unless we get a non-Achaemenid Persia.

The problem to have Mauryan with the Mughals is they share some cities, how to solve this problem?
If Ahmednagar sultanate was choice replacin the Mauryans, they don't will have the problem of sharing cities.

Paging @Lord Lakely because I know they made a comprehensive city list for potential civs in India and I'm not sure in which thread. I've seen it and it is definitely doable.

Plus if you look at cities like Agra, it was called Akbarabad when the Mughals ruled. Others can be Shahjahanabad (Delhi), and then Pataliputra (Patna) for the Maurya.

Honestly I think it might be harder to try to find a large enough city list for the Ahmednagar Sultanate instead, because of the size of the territory isn't as massive as the others.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

While I agree it does not deserve primacy over perhaps any of the other choices, I must admit I am warming up to the Ahmadnagar Sultanate under Malik Ambar. Like many of Henri's choices elsewhere, it is somewhat thoughtful though not broadly representative of major cultures or regions. That said, barring substantive objections, perhaps it could be a wildcard choice that does not displace other choices for India.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

While I agree it does not deserve primacy over perhaps any of the other choices, I must admit I am warming up to the Ahmadnagar Sultanate under Malik Ambar. Like many of Henri's choices elsewhere, it is somewhat thoughtful though not broadly representative of major cultures or regions. That said, barring substantive objections, perhaps it could be a wildcard choice that does not displace other choices for India.

Maybe way later down the line at Civ 9, the earliest. After at least India gets potentially deblobbed and we get the Mughals, then the Delhi Sultanate, as the rotating Islamic civs from the Indian Subcontinent.

 

[FishFishFish]

Maybe in Civ 300 we can get the Ahmednagar Sultanate along side other great and influential powers such as the Beylik of Chobanids.

This is how I would compare India's Muslim empires:

Delhi Sultanate = Seljuks

Mughals = Ottomans

Ahmednagar Sultanate = A random tiny Anatolian Beylik

 

[Henri Christophe]

Ahmednagar Sultanate = A random tiny Anatolian Beylik

Ahmednagar is not as a random tiny Beylik because Ahmednagar have a cool leader. Who was the leader of Beylik? If he/she was cool as Malik Ambar it should have my support.

While I agree it does not deserve primacy over perhaps any of the other choices, I must admit I am warming up to the Ahmadnagar Sultanate under Malik Ambar. Like many of Henri's choices elsewhere, it is somewhat thoughtful though not broadly representative of major cultures or regions. That said, barring substantive objections, perhaps it could be a wildcard choice that does not displace other choices for India.

I need to disagree when you said Ahmednagar don't add diversity. It's add diversity of the sultanates of Deccan plateau and also add diversity of Blacks outside Africa.
If we have white rulers in Africa, as Cleoptra leading Egypt, why not have black leading an Indian sultanate?

Maybe way later down the line at Civ 9

It can happens in Civ 9 or civ 300. But I want to see that's happening. It will happens when Fireaxis understand Black diversity is also important outside Africa. I want to see this happening in the game when Haiti and Seminole (with leaders as Negro Abraham) was also add. And I hope this diversity come soon as possible in Civ7.

 

[Patine]

Ahmednagar is not as a random tiny Beylik because Ahmednagar have a cool leader. Who was the leader of Beylik? If he/she was cool as Malik Ambar it should have my support.

"Cool," "amazing," or, "awesome," leaders in your personal opinion should not be stated as objective facts on a list of benefits that everyone can get behind.

I need to disagree when you said Ahmednagar don't add diversity. It's add diversity of the sultanates of Deccan plateau and also add diversity of Blacks outside Africa.
If we have white rulers in Africa, as Cleoptra leading Egypt, why not have black leading an Indian sultanate?

There are many FAR better, more iconic, and better known Deccan civilizations. At least seven were listed on this thread. And, I hate to say it, but a Black leader adds nothing to India, Indian culture, or Indian history, inherently, in and of itself, and only leads to the blocking up of a civ premium slot with a minor bit player very few have heard of off hand.

 

[Saxo Grammaticus]

I need to disagree when you said Ahmednagar don't add diversity. It's add diversity of the sultanates of Deccan plateau and also add diversity of Blacks outside Africa.
If we have white rulers in Africa, as Cleoptra leading Egypt, why not have black leading an Indian sultanate?

My apologies, as I see upon rereading how you could draw that conclusion. I agree the Ahmadnagar Sultanate could expand representation of Blacks outside Africa. On the other hand, I do not see Malik Ambar playing a large role in deblobbing India. For that, I would be partial to the Mauryan/Chola/Mughal suggestion from Alexander's Hetaroi. At least then, people with limited to no exposure to India would be familiar with major influences in the region.