Indian Unit Line Workshop

[Sandris]

Reference images with descriptions/argumentation for completing Indian (India) unit line are needed. Historical accuracy is preferred.

Proposed historical period lines (could be changed during working process):

1. Harappa
2. Magadha/Maurya
3. Hindu-Greeks
4. Kushans
5. Bactria
6. Gazznevids
7. Sultanate of Deli
8. ... (Later Medieval)
9. Great Moghuls
10. ...

 

[Ares de Borg]

Sandris is back!: woohoo:

 

[Wolfhart]

Good to see you again Sandris!

 

[Virote_Considon]

Welcome back!

Saw that you'd been on a couple of days ago when you changed your avatar

Bactria should be around the time of the Indo-Greeks, perhaps before; After the Kushans, it doesn't appear to have been a separate entity of its own.

 

[Sandris]

Hi to all ! Thank you.

Well, I`m waiting for all proposals and images to start working on this unit line.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Could you post a generic unit list to work from - archer, swordsman, etc. ? Knowing what unit lines you are looking for would help prioritize choices. For example, do you want to make the elephant units missing from the available pool?

I had put the Indian unit concept art aside to work on the steampunk project. Give me time & I can get what you need put together.

"Hindu-Greeks" is more often referred to as "Indo-Greek".

They overlap in time, but Tamil (South India) clothing & weaponry varies from the Mauryan (Gangetic plain). Perhaps they could fill in one of your empty slots.

I'd nominate East India Company colonial troops for the last slot. Seven unit suggestions with plenty of art.

I'd be willing to make props of any of the special hand weapons (swords, etc.) you need.

EDIT: And are you willing to make Army/GL/King units?

 

[Sandris]

Well, the generic lines:

- warrior/swordsman
- spearman/pikeman
- javelinman/archer/slinger
- horseman (spear/sword)
- horse javelinman/horse archer
- specific units (chariots, elephants, guards etc.)

 

[Blue Monkey]

And you will carry through to gunpowder units based on the historic eras you listed, correct?

Do you want the images posted here, or are links to them elsewhere (like my thread) all right?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Harappa's going to be rough for historical accuracy - no contemporary accounts, untranslated language, paucity of visual media for clothing let alone weaponry, etc.

For the other early periods what would you consider authoritative - temple bas-reliefs (etc.), academic interpretations of contemporary texts, modern images based on same?

 

[The Guardian]

Great to see you back Sandris. You've been missed. Hope all is well with you.
You probably already know this, but there were several East India Companies. The British and Dutch were the most notable but nearly all the major European power had East Indian companies Including Sweden. I would recommend doing the East Indian Company units in civ colors, unless you want to do different specific uniform types. I will see what I can find for you. Welcome back.

Moderator Action: moved from another thread.

 

[Blue Monkey]

You probably already know this, but there were several East India Companies. The British and Dutch were the most notable but nearly all the major European power had East Indian companies Including Sweden. I would recommend doing the East Indian Company units in civ colors, unless you want to do different specific uniform types. I will see what I can find for you. Welcome back.

I'd nominate East India Company colonial troops for the last slot. Seven unit suggestions with plenty of art.

I agree with the comment re-civ color. In the linked post there are images from other powers & the same in the suggestions. Those images were selected from a much larger collection on hand as being representative types.

 

[Virote_Considon]

Maybe, based on the hypothesis that Harappan people were related to the Elamites, my suggestion for Elamites over in the Mesopotamian thread could be moved over here, to generally represent Elamo-Dravidian units?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Except that "Dravidians" generally is used to refer to peoples of South India (Telugus, Tamils, etc.) rather than people of the Punjab & Hindu Kush.


EDIT: "Elamo-Dravidian" is a supposed language group. It's on a par with Indo-European or Indo-Aryan. I hope the thread doesn't get derailed by the whole who invented farming & who invaded who debate.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Virote's post brings attention to an issue I had already noticed with the proposed "historic periods" list. The problem is that there are geographical as well as chronological considerations. For the sake of having simple labels I'm referring to the main geographical areas as Bactria/Punjab ( SE Afghanistan & Pakistan - what the British generally referred to as the NW Frontier), Gangetic (Northern India - generally the watershed of the Ganges) & [I]Deccan[/I] [Plateau] (standing in for Southern as well as Central India). I chose these divisions because they are the broad areas into which significant political / cultural areas divide. It is very exceptional for any hegemony to dominate more than one of these three regions during any time period. Alexander, for example only came into the Bactria/Punjab part of the subcontinent. Same is true of his Seleucid successors. Making a quick chart (geo vs. chrono) & filling in Sandris' suggestions, along with others to fill in the blanks reveals something very interesting.

[IMG]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/333/empiredistribution2.jpg[/IMG]

Pink cells are the civs on Sandris' list. There's no point in arguing the minutiae of maximum incursions, the chart is only meant to outline centers of control. The Bactria>Indo-Greek>Kushan sequence of successor states as well as Ghaznavid>Sultanates>Mughals represent gradual incursions from the Iranian Plateau by peoples from beyond India. There is at first a distinct ethnic separation between ruling class & populace; eventually a hybrid culture develops. Hellenistic in the first sequence, Persian/Islamic in the second. The Ghaznavids made incursions but didn't really take significant control in the Gangetic. The Sultanates contended with strong Hindu polities and remained separate entities. Which is why they share those blocks with HK (Hindu Kingdoms) in the chart. Only the Mughals held significant control over the whole of the Gangetic. They never controlled the South. The chart doesn't have room for the significant post-Mughal Hindu kingdoms that were eclipsed by the European colonization.

The key thing to grasp from the chart is that there is no coverage of the South of India during the eras dominated by the Telugu/Tamil empires, and only very spotty coverage of the Gangetic plain by the civs specifically named in Sandris' original list. It's entirely up to Sandris what unit lines he wants to make. I'm only trying to point out significant gaps in coverage of the breadth of the subcontinent's cultures & eras.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7379229&postcount=20
Some Medieval Indian concepts

 

[The Guardian]

Here is one I requested a while back. Perhaps you might be able to use this.

The one on the left is British around 1795-1800
The one of the right is Swedish around 1750 -1760


Company infantry are professional soldiers drawn exclusively from Europeans, both officers and other ranks. They are members of private armies for the traders, but one that is available to further national needs when required. They fight using European doctrine and equipment as line infantrymen, carrying smoothbore, muzzle-loading muskets. These soldiers are also enforcers, tax gatherers and a potent threat against the local princes in India, even away the battlefield. Native regiments under European officers exist too, but their reliability is doubtful.

Historically, the great European trading companies were often closer to being nations in their own right than business ventures. India was so wealthy that the companies needed armies, not just guards, to protect and expand their interests and prestige. The British East India Company (the “John Company&#8221, the Dutch “Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie” (VOC) and the French “La Compagnie française des Indes orientales” all had their own armed forces; 1 in 5 VOC employees were soldiers!

 

[The Guardian]

Thought this might help give you an idea of the time period covering the involvement of the EIC companies in india. Map shows location and dates of EIC settlements.

 

[Sandris]

What unit types could be made for 1700, 1750, 1790 and 1812 Indian unit lines (grenadier, fusilier etc) ?

 

[Steph]

Or you could make different type of units : Sikh, Gurkha, Punjab...

 

[Blue Monkey]

What unit types could be made for 1700, 1750, 1790 and 1812 Indian unit lines (grenadier, fusilier etc) ?

Sepoy (French style uniform), Sepoy (British style uniform), Lascar, Sapper, Lancers, Company infantry, elephant-mounted company sharpshooters, elephant-mounted artillery, NW Frontier irregulars, Gurkha rangers, Rajput cavalry, Sikh cavalry, Sikh infantry, ...

The Indians had local/tribal/ethnic martial traditions of many centuries standing. Styles varied from place to place enough that until the advent of European influence there were not so much specialized units or uniforms as traditional caste training and ethnic clothing. Want cavalry for desert fighting - get the Rajputs on your side. Need to block your enemies supply lines through the mountains - make sure you're on good terms with the Gurkhas.


I'm losing clarity on whether you are looking for carefully thought out unit lines based on geography & chronology or just scattershot suggestions. The latter is easy; the former takes both time & careful consideration.