Indian Unit Line Workshop

[BadKharma]

Wow great to see you back!. I like the preview I think it has great flavor.

 

[Sandris]

It would be much easier for me to categorize units in a following manner, for example:

For 1770-1800 we need 5 units:
- Lancer (images)
- Sepoy (images)
- Irregulars (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)

For 1812-1815 we need 7 units:
- Lancer (images)
- Sepoy (images)
- Irregulars (images)
- Marines (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)

...and so on.

 

[The Guardian]

Hope this will help. I doubt they would look much different than this 50 or 60 years earlier. Since they haven't changed much in the past 130 years. Note the homemade rifles.

A group of Afridi tribesmen from the Khyber pass region c.1880. They are armed with jezails and chora (Khyber knives)

Here's another photo 17 years later. The garb remains pretty much the same, tho some of the rifles have changed. Note two other items. All men are bearded and note the lances still in use.

 

[Blue Monkey]

It would be much easier for me to categorize units in a following manner, for example:

For 1770-1800 we need 5 units:
- Lancer (images)
- Sepoy (images)
- Irregulars (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)

For 1812-1815 we need 7 units:
- Lancer (images)
- Sepoy (images)
- Irregulars (images)
- Marines (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)
- ... (images)

...and so on.

Which leads to three questions:

Are the images I previously linked to, which have dates & annotations, sufficient?

Why no unit lines for 1801-1811?

What are you putting in the "... and so on" category? Hard to select detailed accurate images without knowing what you are looking for.

 

[Steph]

Well, I don't want to answer in place of Sandris, but I suppose he is used to what I'm doing for my mod.

http://stephane.f.david.free.fr/CivMod/All_LandUnits_Era_1.htm

I tried to put for each civ and each era the units already available (some are placeholders), or a thumbnail to some reference pictures.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Sandris and Steph working together? That is like dividing by zero on the scale of awesome.

Steph I have alot of respect for you, keep up the good work sir.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Well, I don't want to answer in place of Sandris, but I suppose he is used to what I'm doing for my mod.

http://stephane.f.david.free.fr/CivMod/All_LandUnits_Era_1.htm

I tried to put for each civ and each era the units already available (some are placeholders), or a thumbnail to some reference pictures.

If that's the latest version of your chart there are a lot of units already made that are missing. Off the top of my head there are the Indian worker & settler, and many of imperator's Indian units as well.

I can provide an annotated reference image for almost all of the Indian slots, given time. Since the first wips Sandris has posted are from the 18th-19th c. I should probably concentrate there first. Barring RL distractions I should be able to post the first few in the next 24 hours.

 

[Steph]

First, this page shows only the first 9 eras, that's why you don't see much units from Imperator (coming after this).

Second, as India was not complete enough with good consistenecy, I didn't include it yet in my mod. I have a hunch this will change soon, but in the meantime, this page is heavily under construction fro the civs on the right. It should be rather complete for the civ on the left, up to Egypt.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I found the chart for the 17th-19th c. . Even though India is mostly blank knowing the slots gives me a good idea of what to look for. I'll check Imperator's output before making suggestions.

 

[Steph]

If you want, you can email me your suggestion from existing units or reference pictures, telling in whatr slot they are supposed to go, and I can upload it to my page for easier reference.

 

[Blue Monkey]

If you want, you can email me your suggestion from existing units or reference pictures, telling in whatr slot they are supposed to go, and I can upload it to my page for easier reference.

I'm preparing suggestions with a single picture for each and a brief text - suitable both as an explanation for my choices and as a basis for a 'pedia entry. I'll be using contemporary accounts where they are available, primarily from my own shelf of reference books. I've been reviewing them this morning. Existing units, such as Imperator's, will be used where possible. That way Sandris can concentrate on what is not available.

I want to post the info here so that it is available for discussion. I will also make a zip file with the same for you to use.

I roughed out from your chart an "Indian line" for use in identifying the slots.

 

[Steph]

Existing units, such as Imperator's, will be used where possible. That way Sandris can concentrate on what is not available.

Sandris may want to make his own version for moe continuity, I don't know.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Sandris may want to make his own version for moe continuity, I don't know.

I'll still post a description & image for them then. At least they will be available as placeholders, if nothing else.

 

[Steph]

It's still good to see them, they can be used as reference also, or just us "as is", or possibly is Sandris make a unit for the same time period to make two factions for India.

However, if there is an existing unit but you can think of something different for the same period (Muslim vs Hindou vs instance) don't hesitate to propose additional reference.

 

[Blue Monkey]

We're thinking along the same lines. My suggestions will include a few Europeans with the Indians. Officers & NCOs who lost their company positions often became cadre for training local troops in military doctrine for combating colonial powers. Also, there were Indian troops on both sides of the colonial conflicts, as well as the many wars between local rulers.

You've got enough slots that I can show a lot of variety in the clothing & weapons. For example, some of the martial "tribes" specialized in light cavalry, while the Mughals emphasized heavy.

Could you clarify what you mean by guard cavalry - I have seen them described as both heavy & light.

 

[Steph]

Good idea about the tribes.

About officer, you an read the story of Benoit de Boigne. A very fine example of what you want to say.

The slots are more guidelines. Guard cavalry = stronger elite cavalry that should rather be produced in small number by a wonder.
It's usually heavy, but it doesn't have to.

And nothing prevents you from putting two units in the same slot if you think they deserve it.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Sandris, these are pretty old, and you probably already know about them, but just in case you've forgotten:

Spoiler :

I'm very much looking forward to all these new units you're making.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'm going to post the recommendations piecemeal, then sum them up in a post with the chart.

Some general guidelines: Use as much variation as possible. The progression over time is local costume > cast off Euro uniforms > standardized regimental uniforms based on a mix of local & Euro styles with great variety from regiment to regiment. Weapons in general will be one tech level behind Euro.

Next up Sepoys.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Here's the first set of infantry. Sandris' wips match fairly well with three unit types.

Sepoys & Light Infantry
large image

Spoiler :

Uniform Suggestions or changes

• Only put shoes on elite units. For example, The "light infantry" wip should be barefoot as in the contemporary images.
• Pagri (turbans) - don't use civ color for the whole, although stripes, and decorative additions are okay. This is because green turbans signify descendants of the Prophet & black for religious leaders such as mullahs.
• Both the cipaye & the sepoy are shown with "Persian" slippers - curled up toes.
• The Light Infantry's hat should be shorter & broader. I think it is meant as a European interpretation of the pheta style of turban worn in Maratha.

Unit Notes

• Native Recruits - Units were also known as "coast sepoys" or "pioneers". Used as foragers, advance patrols, or as screening troops. AFAIK that's the equivalent of the light infantry role in European armies.
• Light Infantry - better armed & trained than the "native" battalions. Probably fit in a different unit slot than European light infantry. See uniform note above.
• Cipaye - sepoy is a British English corruption of this Portuguese interpretation of an Indian term for a simple foot soldier. Use "cipaye" for the 18th c. & "sepoy" for the 19th c. unit. The uniform pictured is based on a contepmorary drawing of a soldier in French service. It's important that the majority of the clothing be white - it's muslin. He's armed with a flintlock or matchlock, a tulwar (curved sword) and a katar. There's a free prop available if you want to use it for one of the attacks. Given his weapons & standardized uniform this should probably fill one of the early elite slots.

I can't really pick a specific slot for these units in your line progressions. They were recruited for specific geographic & combat abilities. Not always equivalent to European types despite units being given similar names. But hopefully I've given you enough info to put them where they belong. You can easily fill some slots by varying uniforms (such as different headgear or pant lengths) & giving them a regional name associated with a martial "tribe". Punjab Rifles, for example.

Hopefully I'll get more suggestions posted later today. I know I've got pictures of units called grenadiers & guards, amongst others. I'll try to finish off the rest of the infantry today & tomorrow, then tackle the cavalry & artillery.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Are the Industrial era Indians going to be civ color? Because I could use them for both India and Malaysia. As well as mercenaries for civs that conquer the region. But if not, that limits their usability.