Institutional racism in policing and how to rectify it.

[Colonel]

He should have said big city. In a city with millions of people there probably is a gunshot somewhere just about every night. But other than a domestic dispute gone way out of hand or a bar fight gone way out of hand there isn't much in the way of criminal activity where a gun is brought into play other than by cops.

Again your "facts" go entirely in the face of FBI crime stats, but ok continue with your dribble.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nothing you have said is backed by any sort of evidence. Statistics from the FBI and other sources in fact contradict everything you have said. Criminals usually try escaping or fighting there way out. It is in fact a miracle most of these instances don't escalate to a point where lethal force is necessary. Luckily, we have very well trained and professional officers who exercise their authority responsibly and only use the appropriate level of force, as is actually evidenced by the New York and Ferguson cases. The only questionable action in either of those cases is a possible choke hold which NYPD made against policy.

Farm Boy, clearly not then. I've listened to various police bands around the country and I hear those sorts of calls each time.

Nothing you have said is backed by statistics, common sense, or anything else. Criminals don't usually 'try' to escape. They usually just do. By the time the cops get there they are long gone. Unfortunately for the criminals they are almost always readily identifiable so the cops can come around and pick them up.

If you are thinking that the thousands of arrests made every day involve violent confrontations in any significant fraction you are out of your mind. Go sit in your local courthouse. When cops come to get you avoiding a resisting arrest charge is hard. So how come the vast overwhelming majority of cases being arraigned don't include a resisting arrest charge if, as you say, criminals "usually try to fight their way out"?

You are just spouting glaringly unrealistic junk. You may well believe it, and there's no help for that, but that doesn't mean anyone else should.

 

[Colonel]

Nothing you have said is backed by statistics, common sense, or anything else. Criminals don't usually 'try' to escape. They usually just do. By the time the cops get there they are long gone. Unfortunately for the criminals they are almost always readily identifiable so the cops can come around and pick them up.

If you are thinking that the thousands of arrests made every day involve violent confrontations in any significant fraction you are out of your mind. Go sit in your local courthouse. When cops come to get you avoiding a resisting arrest charge is hard. So how come the vast overwhelming majority of cases being arraigned don't include a resisting arrest charge if, as you say, criminals "usually try to fight their way out"?

You are just spouting glaringly unrealistic junk. You may well believe it, and there's no help for that, but that doesn't mean anyone else should.

During 2013, law enforcement made an estimated 11,302,102 arrests (including 480,360 for violent crimes and 1,559,284 for property crimes). The highest number of arrests were for drug abuse violations (estimated at 1,501,043), larceny-theft (estimated at 1,231,580), and driving under the influence (estimated at 1,166,824).
There were an estimated 14,196 murders last year.
Aggravated assaults (an estimated 724,149 last year) accounted for the largest percentage of violent crimes reported to law enforcement—62.3 percent.
Firearms were used in 69 percent of the nation’s murders, 40 percent of robberies, and 21.6 percent of aggravated assaults (weapons data is not collected on rape incidents).
There were an estimated 79,770 rapes (legacy definition) reported to law enforcement.
Victims of burglary offenses suffered an estimated $4.5 billion in property losses, and burglaries of residential properties accounted for 74 percent of the total reported.
Larceny-thefts accounted for the largest percentage of property crimes reported to law enforcement—69.6 percent. (The average value of property taken during larceny-thefts was $1,259.)
During 2013, an estimated 699,594 motor vehicles were reported stolen, and 73.9 percent of those were cars. (Other types of stolen vehicles included trucks, sport utility vehicles, buses, motorcycles, motor scooters, all-terrain vehicles, and snowmobiles).


Resisting arrest specifically isn't tracked so at best I can give you anecdotal evidence from the dozens of officers I personally know and the many stories they have heard of people resisting arrest. Much less reality shows like cops which show you hundreds of cases of resisting arrest each season.

 

[Farm Boy]

Colonel: Yes, I do. My wife is paid to. I do on and off because I value her, I value my friends, and even if I don't turn it on my neighbors run it in their garage. You said city. I'm not in the middle of Wyoming, there's over 100000 souls in the relevant jurisdiction. You should probably specify your sample rather than doubling down when you're off.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

During 2013, law enforcement made an estimated 11,302,102 arrests (including 480,360 for violent crimes and 1,559,284 for property crimes). The highest number of arrests were for drug abuse violations (estimated at 1,501,043), larceny-theft (estimated at 1,231,580), and driving under the influence (estimated at 1,166,824).
There were an estimated 14,196 murders last year.
Aggravated assaults (an estimated 724,149 last year) accounted for the largest percentage of violent crimes reported to law enforcement—62.3 percent.
Firearms were used in 69 percent of the nation’s murders, 40 percent of robberies, and 21.6 percent of aggravated assaults (weapons data is not collected on rape incidents).
There were an estimated 79,770 rapes (legacy definition) reported to law enforcement.
Victims of burglary offenses suffered an estimated $4.5 billion in property losses, and burglaries of residential properties accounted for 74 percent of the total reported.
Larceny-thefts accounted for the largest percentage of property crimes reported to law enforcement—69.6 percent. (The average value of property taken during larceny-thefts was $1,259.)
During 2013, an estimated 699,594 motor vehicles were reported stolen, and 73.9 percent of those were cars. (Other types of stolen vehicles included trucks, sport utility vehicles, buses, motorcycles, motor scooters, all-terrain vehicles, and snowmobiles).


Resisting arrest specifically isn't tracked so at best I can give you anecdotal evidence from the dozens of officers I personally know and the many stories they have heard of people resisting arrest. Much less reality shows like cops which show you hundreds of cases of resisting arrest each season.

Yeah, those 'reality' shows like Cops...it's pretty amazing what a hard time they have finding arrests without resistance, since I'm sure they search high and low for them given what great television a guy coming along peacefully would be. No doubt your cop buddies only tell you the resisting stories when they have run out of the coming along peacefully stories since we know those are so much more fun to tell.

/sarcasm

Once again...you say that my reality is warped?

Your statistics, by the way, come up with 150,000 firearm involved aggravated assaults in the given year. In a nation of well over three hundred million people that puts your odds of being assaulted by a person with a gun at well under one in two thousand. I've lived a fairly wild life for the past couple decades and the only person who has ever threatened me with a gun was a cop. Among my wild living and even outright criminal friends the only threats with a gun any of them have ever encountered were from cops.

The only people who prefer guns are cops, because guns have zero anonymity. You start firing off a gun there are going to be witnesses, every time, and they are going to pay close attention. The vast majority of disputes among non cops are settled with blunt force or knives, because they are quiet.

 

[Colonel]

Yeah, those 'reality' shows like Cops...it's pretty amazing what a hard time they have finding arrests without resistance, since I'm sure they search high and low for them given what great television a guy coming along peacefully would be. No doubt your cop buddies only tell you the resisting stories when they have run out of the coming along peacefully stories since we know those are so much more fun to tell.

/sarcasm

Once again...you say that my reality is warped?

Your statistics, by the way, come up with 150,000 firearm involved aggravated assaults in the given year. In a nation of well over three hundred million people that puts your odds of being assaulted by a person with a gun at well under one in two thousand. I've lived a fairly wild life for the past couple decades and the only person who has ever threatened me with a gun was a cop. Among my wild living and even outright criminal friends the only threats with a gun any of them have ever encountered were from cops.

The only people who prefer guns are cops, because guns have zero anonymity. You start firing off a gun there are going to be witnesses, every time, and they are going to pay close attention. The vast majority of disputes among non cops are settled with blunt force or knives, because they are quiet.

I was using the show cops to illustrate that resisting arrest isnt an every arrest occurrence but the show is at least factual with what they display, which is in a given season hundreds of resisting arrest charges. Much less I've asked the officers I know the specifics on the ratio of resisting to willful compliance. And yes it is a smaller minority of cases but your point was that we should either fully or partially disarm or create parity between the police and civilian populace. Which I've shown you factual and circumstantial evidence that this would inherently create a more dangerous society.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I was using the show cops to illustrate that resisting arrest isnt an every arrest occurrence but the show is at least factual with what they display, which is in a given season hundreds of resisting arrest charges. Much less I've asked the officers I know the specifics on the ratio of resisting to willful compliance. And yes it is a smaller minority of cases but your point was that we should either fully or partially disarm or create parity between the police and civilian populace. Which I've shown you factual and circumstantial evidence that this would inherently create a more dangerous society.

You have shown that there are hundreds of cases of resistance on a TV show drawn from millions of arrests.

You haven't shown anything even related to 'disarming the cops makes a more dangerous society'.

I've stated that the vast, vast majority of people who aren't committing crimes would continue cheerfully on not committing crimes whether the cops were disarmed or ceased to exist altogether. You have no argument for that.

I've stated that the vast majority of arrests would go pretty much the same if the police weren't armed, because the reality is that if the police know who you are you are totally screwed. Adding additional charges, like resisting arrest, is so obviously stupid that criminals generally won't do it, whether the cops are armed or not. You have no argument for that.

I've stated that the incidence in the real world of cops arriving in the nick of time and saving the day waving their guns is vanishingly small. Cops actually arrive after the crime is over and the criminal is gone, ask questions, identify the criminal, and then go get him. You can't argue with that because your own statistics will support it.

 

[classical_hero]

CH has a point here - I don't think the choke killed him - see the opinion of some BJJ experts here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nql1xRtWKOU

There would have been damage to the cartilage in the neck for that sort of choke to have directly killed him, and there wasn't.

However, I do think the police used an excessive amount of force and negligently allowed Eric Garner to die.

I do believe there was some sort of negligence in play, but the fact he could speak shows he could breathe. Someone being choked wouldn't be able to say anything. But also the guy in question should have followed instructions an not slap away the police officers hands.

 

[James Stuart]

I do believe there was some sort of negligence in play, but the fact he could speak shows he could breathe. Someone being choked wouldn't be able to say anything. But also the guy in question should have followed instructions an not slap away the police officers hands.

classical_hero, this is incorrect. Being able to speak in no way indicates you are not being choked. I teach BJJ, and I speak while being choked all the time. The ability to expel air does not mean one is able to inhale it, and if it's a blood choke rather than an air choke, it has no effect on the ability to speak whatsoever.

 

[Flying Pig]

You can make words without necessarily being able to breathe in; the amount of air that needs to go out to do that is tiny in proportion to the amount that you need to take in to breathe sustainably. Plus choking affects the blood supply as much as the air.

EDIT: Cross-posted to the same effect, I think.

 

[classical_hero]

If you listen to how he says it, his airway isn't being impeded by the officer otherwise you will see damage to the windpipe. What we saw was a choke to the blood supply to incapacitate the person. It is a very common hold used in MMA and wrestling.

 

[Flying Pig]

Yes, but it's also quite dangerous if used incorrectly - MMA fighters and wrestlers spend a lot of time training to do it, while policemen spend hardly any time day-to-day learning and practising how to restrain suspects - after all, they have actual police work to do.

 

[James Stuart]

If you listen to how he says it, his airway isn't being impeded by the officer otherwise you will see damage to the windpipe. What we saw was a choke to the blood supply to incapacitate the person. It is a very common hold used in MMA and wrestling.

I've trained with UFC fighters, so I am well-aware of what a rear naked choke is. I'm also well-aware of what a crossface chickenwing is, which is a lot closer to what this cop did than anyone else seems to think. An RNC would be using both hands to cross under the victim's chin, whereas this is more similar to a nasty rugby league tackle; you'll see Cameron Smith use a variation of this pretty regularly, next time the Melbourne Storm play a televised game. Trust me, watch his tackles closely, he's very good at it. Better than me, honestly, at least at that hold.

And I can tell you, as an expert, that Garner's windpipe is absolutely being impeded. I can see that before he speaks, and I can clearly hear it afterwards. What this cop used was an air choke, not a blood choke, though he may have thought he was using a blood choke. Which is why untrained idiots shouldn't use these holds, cops or otherwise. I trained for five years before I was comfortable using chokes outside of regulated competitions.

 

[Colonel]

You have shown that there are hundreds of cases of resistance on a TV show drawn from millions of arrests.

You haven't shown anything even related to 'disarming the cops makes a more dangerous society'.

I've stated that the vast, vast majority of people who aren't committing crimes would continue cheerfully on not committing crimes whether the cops were disarmed or ceased to exist altogether. You have no argument for that.

I've stated that the vast majority of arrests would go pretty much the same if the police weren't armed, because the reality is that if the police know who you are you are totally screwed. Adding additional charges, like resisting arrest, is so obviously stupid that criminals generally won't do it, whether the cops are armed or not. You have no argument for that.

I've stated that the incidence in the real world of cops arriving in the nick of time and saving the day waving their guns is vanishingly small. Cops actually arrive after the crime is over and the criminal is gone, ask questions, identify the criminal, and then go get him. You can't argue with that because your own statistics will support it.

The flatly untrue. There aren't statistics for how many resist arrest so that is a point we will simply disagree on, as I can only give you anecdotal evidence from the many officers I know. Also, a criminal who has committed a crime worthy of significant jail time would more then likely be more willing to resist arrest if he knew all he has to do is escape the un-armed police. Especially if he were caught by a single officer say like a traffic stop. Oh and heres as recent a stat as I can find, so yes lets disarm the officers and that 4,450 below will be officer deaths instead of wounded.

In 2012, 4,450 officers were wounded or assaulted in various manners during traffic stops

 

[Farm Boy]

You know that pig feces I mentioned earlier? I'm half expecting you to faint breathily after that last conclusion. Don't worry, I'll get the smelling salts and loosen your girdle.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Wounded or assaulted can be anything. An officer punched could happen whether he has a gun or not. Wilson had a gun yet was punched. I remember a cop cutting himself on his hand from a fence when chasing a suspect on foot, and unless you are suggesting he should have shot the guy rather than giving chase to avoid a cut on his hand......

 

[Colonel]

Wounded or assaulted can be anything. An officer punched could happen whether he has a gun or not. Wilson had a gun yet was punched. I remember a cop cutting himself on his hand from a fence when chasing a suspect on foot, and unless you are suggesting he should have shot the guy rather than giving chase to avoid a cut on his hand......

Your digging into what specifically "wounded" means really? This statistic is from the FBI crime stats for 2012. It is specific to caused by individual or individuals stopped for a traffic violation. Also since you brought up Officer Wilson, it stands to reason that he would in fact be dead right now if he hadn't had a gun because that thug was trying to kill him.

 

[Bamspeedy]

The guy chasing the suspect on foot was a traffic stop. It started as a traffic stop and then the suspect fled. The cop tried jumping a fence and cut his hand.

You'll need to quote more than this:

In 2012, 4,450 officers were wounded or assaulted in various manners during traffic stops

to say the injuries were directly from the criminals (or minor traffic violators) and the officer's lives were actually in danger in all of them.

You are better off challenging Tim's assertion that cops use guns more than all criminals combined.

 

[Flying Pig]

I agree that we should be very suspicious of statistics for 'wounds', because it's easy to understand why various people might have different ideas of what constitutes a wound. If things aren't particularly busy and the boss is unusually keen on paperwork, he'll probably make you file an incident report for even the most minor injuries, but at other times and in other places that simply doesn't happen. 'Assaulted', too, can be quite vague, and police officers have an incentive to categorise relatively minor aggression as assault just so that they have an excuse to arrest somebody who is being rude, uncooperative and generally annoying. Lies, damn lies and all.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The flatly untrue. There aren't statistics for how many resist arrest so that is a point we will simply disagree on, as I can only give you anecdotal evidence from the many officers I know. Also, a criminal who has committed a crime worthy of significant jail time would more then likely be more willing to resist arrest if he knew all he has to do is escape the un-armed police. Especially if he were caught by a single officer say like a traffic stop. Oh and heres as recent a stat as I can find, so yes lets disarm the officers and that 4,450 below will be officer deaths instead of wounded.

Get it through your head. Criminals along with everyone else know that "all you have to do is get away from this cop" is total BS. Unless you can get away from this cop and never be identified you are screwed.

When a cop car behind you on the freeway turns their lights on, is your thought process "well, it's just a fine not significant jail time so I suppose I'll pull on over" or is it "they have my license plate number and have probably already called it in". Hint: trying to lie because one choice supports your theory will do you no good here because the real answer is totally obvious.

I live off the grid. It requires an entirely different mindset that most people I know think is insane, and they don't even see every aspect of how hard it is, even without being wanted by the cops. Nothing you consider normal is available to someone who has been identified by the police. They can't have a job other than under the table cash work. They can't get pulled over, meaning that they need to do a quick lights and registration inspection every time they get in a car. They can't have a credit check run, so they can't own property or even rent anything. They can't visit their relatives, or have friends close enough to be identified with.

And you think 'oh if the cop can't shoot them down right now they will just disappear like a puff of smoke'. Get a grip.