Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[SMcM]

The UK could not halt?

Yes, halt. Put a stop to. Whatever you want to call it. If you find that offensive, then not my problem.

As for UK involvement in Polish immigration; yes, UK allowed it to happen in the first place (we don't know if they were expecting such large numbers), but then could not control it after.

And Polish economy fine? Not really, on the up definately, and likely with a brighter future, but far from fine as it is. Why else would millions have left the country due to lack of economic opportunity? Even when talking about purchasing power parity, GDP per capita in Poland is barely higher than Greece.

 

[Arakhor]

"Could not control it" is a loaded phrase, as it only means what the reader wants it to mean, not necessarily what the user actually intended. A failure to communicate is everyone's problem.

 

[Takhisis]

you seem to imply there is such a thing as the tory left wing

There's Tories and Tories to the right of those Tories.

Why don't you support the Europublicans?

I was being sarcastic.

 

[FriendlyFire]

And Polish economy fine? Not really, on the up definately, and likely with a brighter future, but far from fine as it is. Why else would millions have left the country due to lack of economic opportunity? Even when talking about purchasing power parity, GDP per capita in Poland is barely higher than Greece.

Polish emigration was because of the stronger UK currency and for some reason the UK needed cheap unskilled labour. Thus the sterotype of Poland being England plumber (Kurwa).

Today all that Euromonies being poured into developing Poland has made its economy much better. Iam guessing mostly driven by German war guilt as well as strategic interests. Poland has come a long way but is still relatively poor and is shown as an example of what to do when joining the Greater Germany EU. Greece on the other hand is an example of what NOT to do when joining the EU.

The Economy of Poland sixth largest in the EU
Poland is ranked 20th worldwide in terms of GDP and classified as high-income economy by World Bank

Greece is the fifteenth-largest economy in the 28-member European Union
The economy of Greece is the 46th largest in the world,

 

[Verbose]

Yes, halt. Put a stop to. Whatever you want to call it. If you find that offensive, then not my problem.

As for UK involvement in Polish immigration; yes, UK allowed it to happen in the first place (we don't know if they were expecting such large numbers), but then could not control it after.

The UK could-not–control-it-while-running-the-kind-of-labour-market-policies-it-does.

Different set of policies — no, or at least much reduced, problems. Something the EU or anyone else had 0 influence on.

 

[EnglishEdward]

"Could not control it" is a loaded phrase, as it only means what the reader wants it to mean, not necessarily what the user actually intended. A failure to communicate is everyone's problem.

Arakhor, you are not only quibbling with semantics and
begging the question, but you are quite wrong.

For the benefit of non UK readers, several UK governments
set targets on limiting net migration into the UK and then
openly admitted that they failed to meet such targets
because net immigration grossly exceeded such targets.

The UK press has documented this on many occasions, and it
is is all available if you search with the right keywords.

Whether such targets should have been set, could have
been met, are all topics for debate, but the loss of control
is a objective fact, not my or others subjective opinion.

In practice I think that leaving the UK will make less difference
to net migration than most leavers or remainers expect.

 

[bathsheba666]

you seem to imply there is such a thing as the tory left wing

Umm, well compared to the tory right wing, those of gradually less extreme views could be considered to be tory centrists, then tory left wingers.

I hardly need to tell you ( so why am i? ) that all such terms are merely relative.

In the death camps, there were those who pushed people into the ovens, and there were those who contented themselves with not stopping the others. All relative, but all on the same team.

"Left wing tory" does not imply socialist, or even moral primate.

 

[Arakhor]

Arakhor, you are not only quibbling with semantics and begging the question, but you are quite wrong.

I don't think there is anything in my quoted sentence that is at all wrong.

 

[FriendlyFire]

In practice I think that leaving the UK will make less difference
to net migration than most leavers or remainers expect.

Now you say this ?
After learning that the UK set its own immigration policies which is the direct cause of the immigration problems while blaming the EU the entire time. I guess the EU made a convenient scrape goat.

 

[Takhisis]

It's the EU's fault that they're a convenient scapegoat.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Now you say this ?
After learning that the UK set its own immigration policies which is the direct cause of the immigration problems while blaming the EU the entire time.

It is not an either the UK sets immigration policy or the EU sets immigration policy.

They are both involved.

(a) The UK government set its open policy for immigrants
from outside the European Union;

(b) but this is significantly constrained by international human rights obligations
that the UK had entered into. Some of these are from:
(i) UN policy on refugees and some from
(ii) European Convention on Human Rights; and
(iii) judges interpretation of these.

(c) However for EU nationals the EU rules on freedom of movement apply.

(d) Unlike France and Germany the UK government chose not to temporarily limit
immigration from Poland when Poland joined. I understand that the French and
German governments restrictions have time expired; so this point is historic.

The current policy is therefore resultant from (a), (b) and (c).


What needs to be understood is that the wealthy elite and big business like
immigration, the UK governments do what the elite and business tell them to do.
The UK government has simply ignored what the UK public think and want.

It is not just the inconsistency between what the UK government claims it wants
and what it has lobbied for, but UK government is inconsistent with its voters.

It did this with respect to (a) facilitating large scale immigration from Poland
(b) joining the European Union (c) UK stance in EU on steel dumping by China.

I guess the EU made a convenient scrape goat.

Yes, for many pro Leave campaigners, and no doubt some Leave voters.
But immigration was not the main reason why people voted Leave.

 

[Arakhor]

But immigration was not the main reason why people voted Leave.

Why do you keep saying this? Have there been any large-scale polls on why people voted as they did?

 

[SMcM]

Now you say this ?
After learning that the UK set its own immigration policies which is the direct cause of the immigration problems while blaming the EU the entire time. I guess the EU made a convenient scrape goat.

You know a large proportion of prisoners in some UK jails are Romanian. What could the UK government have done to prevent that? They came here in large numbers because they could due to EU free movement, and because they thought there was opportunity here.

 

[Arakhor]

You know a large proportion of prisoners in some UK jails are Romanian.

I imagine that a large proportion of prisoners in "some" UK gaols are any given demographic.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Why do you keep saying this?

Nobody I know in real life has said they voted to end immigration or even indicated
that they think that leaving the EU would substantially reduce immigration.

Have there been any large-scale polls on why people voted as they did?

Those polls post the referendum that I have seen have been quite good at not including
words like self determinism, democratic accountability, independence or national identity.

 

[Arakhor]

Nobody I know in real life has said they voted to end immigration or even indicated that they think that leaving the EU would substantially reduce immigration.

So, purely anecdotal then, and one I could easily counter given that I know someone who claimed to vote specifically due to immigration issues.

Those polls post the referendum that I have seen have been quite good at not including words like self determinism, democratic accountability, independence or national identity.

Yet you can't reference any?

 

[JohannaK]

I haven't met in real life any Britons who voted to Leave (I've met at least a dozen or two that I've talked to since the referendum), so clearly Remain must have won.

 

[Phrossack]

I've met exactly one Briton, so there probably aren't more than a few of them in existence. I have personal experience, so I know I'm right.

 

[Old Hippy]

What needs to be understood is that the wealthy elite and big business like
immigration, the UK governments do what the elite and business tell them to do.
The UK government has simply ignored what the UK public think and want.
It is not just the inconsistency between what the UK government claims it wants
and what it has lobbied for, but UK government is inconsistent with its voters.

so the UK leaves the EU for independence and full control of it's future because its own
government is undemocratic and doesn't listen to its voters


seems a strange way to get control of its destiny back and doesn't achieve the desired results

 

[Lohrenswald]

I imagine that a large proportion of prisoners in "some" UK gaols are any given demographic.

I haven't met in real life any Britons who voted to Leave (I've met at least a dozen or two that I've talked to since the referendum), so clearly Remain must have won.

I've met exactly one Briton, so there probably aren't more than a few of them in existence. I have personal experience, so I know I'm right.

Most voices I've heard that talked about the referendum alleged with great confidence that most people who voted to leave had immigration as main issue.