Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Kyriakos]

Sadly, the EU has failed rather glaringly and miserably. Then again let's not forget why it formed in the first place. Only country to gain significantly from it (including getting back some lost territory, and membership of the human race) was the definitely not tied at all to ww2 germans, Germany.

Size, number of people, different languages, would have likely doomed this babel even if it was not for the pathetic german politicians and their austerity charade, which clearly was a very good idea.

Can't have "the eye of Adam" as a main politician for 500 million europeans

I think the UK will vote to leave, btw. Not sure if that is what Cam actually would want (doubt it tbh). In case UK leaves it is obvious the domino effect will start.

 

[gay_Aleks]

What the bloody hell is this nonsense.

 

[Akka]

The usual foaming-at-the mouth anti-EU clique is just in full swing. Populism needs its short-sighted masses and convenient scapegoat to work after all.

 

[Kyriakos]

Lol, yeah m8, you've got it all figured out.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Europe is not just a piece of geography. It is a society that is growing in both complexity and size.

No It's not
What makes you think it is?
People in Finland and Spain hardly interact with eachother

and what in the blazes do you mean complex? It' mostly the same as ever, unless it's horrible EU beurocracy you're talking about

Growth in complexity is an unavoidable corollary of technological progress we can not halt, unless we decide becoming Amish - which I can't see happening.

No it's not.
Technological "progress" can't not be halted, and it doesn't make society "more complex" whatever that means

Growth in size unavoidably means that each individual member of society has less say in deciding things. One can decry this as lack democracy, but no matter how perfectly you set up your democracy, you can't change this unfortunate mathematical fact.

Or you could decentrilise to fix it

Growth in size and complexity also mean that this society becomes more intertwined at an almost exponential rate. Our problems are getting increasingly common (shared), and increasingly require common solutions.

what do you mean intertwined? it's as intertwined as ever, besides exports and imports, but I don't think that's what you mean
as for "Our problems are getting increasingly common (shared)", you are right, and those common problems are called the EU

The usual foaming-at-the mouth anti-EU clique is just in full swing. Populism needs its short-sighted masses and convenient scapegoat to work after all.

oh yea, listening to what the people want, how deplorable

 

[Arakhor]

"The people" is a very misleading group.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Populism is a doctrine that appeals to the interests and conceptions (such as hopes and fears) of the general population, especially when contrasting any new collective consciousness push against the prevailing status quo interests of any predominant political sector.[1]

so presumably >50 %

sounds democratic to me

 

[Arakhor]

If only populists in history ever stuck to what they said they were going to do.

 

[Yeekim]

People in Finland and Spain hardly interact with eachother.

You can observe them interacting right on this very thread, not to mention physically and commercially on a constant basis.

Technological "progress" can't not be halted

Your double negative means you expect to halt advancement of technology?

and it doesn't make society "more complex" whatever that means

Are you for real?

In a society of hunter-gatherers, there's probably a few dozen different social roles.
In modern censuses, tens of thousands of different vocations are accounted for and one can identify hundreds of thousands of different social roles. If that is not an increase in complexity, I don't know what is.

I was expecting I'll have defend my conclusions, but not really such basic premises.
I've either miserably failed to communicate my point or you are in YEC-levels of denial.

Or you could decentrilise to fix it

So you would get rid of a municipal government of e.g. London and split it into communes to solve all issues (including transport, sewage, garbage disposal etc) each for themselves?

 

[Lohrenswald]

You can observe them interacting right on this very thread,

no more than interactions with americans
probably less even

not to mention physically and commercially on a constant basis.

in that regard Finland and Spain are more closely intertwined with China than eachother

Your double negative means you expect to halt advancement of technology?

yes

Are you for real?

In a society of hunter-gatherers, there's probably a few dozen different social roles.
In modern censuses, tens of thousands of different vocations are accounted for and one can identify hundreds of thousands of different social roles. If that is not an increase in complexity, I don't know what is.

Not sure if I understand the word Vocation correctøy, but I doubt there are more types of that these days, and it won't make society more complex
and there aren't hundreds of thousands of different social roles. It's basically exploiters and exploited, elites and common folk etc. you know

I was expecting I'll have defend my conclusions, but not really such basic premises.
I've either miserably failed to communicate my point or you are in YEC-levels of denial.

YEC?

Of course you don't put on the table the possibility that you're wrong. That's a way to paint me as the unreasonable part
not that I wouldn't do the same, I suppose

So you would get rid of a municipal government of e.g. London and split it into communes to solve all issues (including transport, sewage, garbage disposal etc) each for themselves?

In a discussion about EU this is quite the strawman/slipperyslope/something

also municipality=commune what are you talking about

 

[Yeekim]

YEC?

Young Earth Creationist.

If you seriously deny that modern society is more complex than stone-age one, there's probably not much we can discuss.

Sure, you are entitled to rise to great philosophical heights and claim "we all are born, we procreate and then die, it's all the same anyway and completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of Universe", but then I don't understand getting worked up about EU either.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Alright, society is a bit more "complex" than the stone age, but mainly because of money

It's not any more complex than 100 years ago, though

and there's not hundreds of thousands of social roles

and it has nothing to do with EU

 

[AdrienIer]

It's not any more complex than 100 years ago, though

Yes it is. Reduced travel time makes everything more complex. You're not only competing with your own countrymen, but with the whole world. It makes governing more complex. It makes running a business more complex. Which aspect of society is simpler than it was 100 years ago ?

 

[Lohrenswald]

Yes it is. Reduced travel time makes everything more complex. You're not only competing with your own countrymen, but with the whole world. It makes governing more complex. It makes running a business more complex. Which aspect of society is simpler than it was 100 years ago ?

reduced travel time does not make things complex, it just makes travel faster
as for "competing" with people from the whole world: 1) that's unrelated to travel time 2) It does not make society more complex (though you can argue larger) 3) not really. People here work here, people there work there, and it's always been like that.

Government might be more complex, but only because It's taken on more roles, welfare first and foremost.

Running a business being more complex is like the EU. It's a burden on the world, and mostly does things not needed.
But while business logistics might be more complicated, shipping, target demographics and what have you, they are not more complex than they used to be in a social sense. Most people do some work, some people take income from it, and that's really it.

Society isn't simpler than 100 years ago, but it's not more complex either

 

[Mise]

I interact with maybe 20-30 people, max. I am, however, not so naïve as to think that society begins and ends at my nose.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I interact with maybe 20-30 people, max. I am, however, not so naïve as to think that society begins and ends at my nose.

I don't see how that's an argument for a "complex" society

 

[Yeekim]

Most people do some work, some people take income from it, and that's really it.

Yes, that's really it.

If only the damn horrible EU wasn't overcomplicating things, eh?

 

[Lohrenswald]

The problem is that EU only favour the latter

EDIT: And for the record: beareucratical complexity=/=social complexity

 

[Yeekim]

I suppose the word you are looking for is "bureaucracy".

And please understand I was attempting to use terms "society" and "complexity of society" in the broadest sense possible.

For example, if there are thousands of pages of regulations where 100 years ago were none, this represents increase of said complexity.

Also, this increase, as a general trend, is unavoidable. And more likely than not leads to the entire system collapsing under its own weight.
Whether that collapse is imminent or ways off, I won't attempt to predict.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I suppose the word you are looking for is "bureaucracy".

yea I can't spell

And please understand I was attempting to use terms "society" and "complexity of society" in the broadest sense possible.

For example, if there are thousands of pages of regulations where 100 years ago were none, this represents increase of said complexity.

Interesting Idea
I disagree, but it's not a completely nonsensical point of view

however

Also, this increase, as a general trend, is unavoidable.

this is wrong, and I don't understand what you base this claim on

for example, regulations are made by government
they can very easily not do this