Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[red_elk]

Ok, then they just deny them ability to exit. What then Scottish people will be able to do?

They'll create Scottish People's Republic of course.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well there is a half-decent case to be made that English people are kind of screwed by the current setup of the UK, since they have no devolution. That is, the English don't get much of a say in internal Scottish matters, but the Scots do get a say in internal English ones. There's no English Parliament.

Problem is, there's no such thing as "internal English matters", strictly speaking. The highest sub-division of the United Kingdom is the region, not the "nation", of which there are twelve, not four. Three of the region have been accorded national status and had certain legislative rights reserved to them, while the other nine have not, and the inhabitants of those regions have never shown much interest in having such rights reserved to them. It would possible to exclude MPs from the national regions from voting on issues which have been reserved to their assemblies, but even that wouldn't constitute a distinct subdivision of the country with its own "internal matters", because there still wouldn't be any distinct entity called "England".

Ok, then they just deny them ability to exit. What then Scottish people will be able to do? Britain might exit because EU have no force to stop them. Scotland does not. i doubt they will even want to put a fight.

I think you might be confusing Europe with Westeros.

 

[sophie]

Problem is, there's no such thing as "internal English matters", strictly speaking. The highest sub-division of the United Kingdom is the region, not the "nation", of which there are twelve, not four. Three of the region have been accorded national status and had certain legislative rights reserved to them, while the other nine have not, and the inhabitants of those regions have never shown much interest in having such rights reserved to them. It would possible to exclude MPs from the national regions from voting on issues which have been reserved to their assemblies, but even that wouldn't constitute a distinct subdivision of the country with its own "internal matters", because there still wouldn't be any distinct entity called "England".

Wessex Regionalist Party?

 

[Traitorfish]

Wessex Regionalist Party?

The South-West will rise again!

 

[AlmostCivilized]

But we are getting a little tired of their (Scottish) tantrum tactic.
I want a referendum when I think I will win it, and if I don't win it,
I will want another one; and until then we will be deliberately
obstructive including preventing English & Welsh Laws on
hunting being adjusted to match Scottish Parliament laws.

As may be, but I do recall from "The Great Debate", that the UK being in the EU was for many Scots the only reason for them remaining in the UK.

 

[innonimatu]

But we are getting a little tired of their tantrum tactic.
I want a referendum when I think I will win it, and if I don't win it,
I will want another one; and until then we will be deliberately
obstructive including preventing English & Welsh Laws on
hunting being adjusted to match Scottish Parliament laws.

If Labour gets rid of its Blairites I expect to see the SNP lose big in the next election. They're doing all these antics about a new referendum without actually having the popular support to call it.

Hell, I have a feeling that if the PM in London said "Fine, you can have a vote in the Scottish Parliament and declare independence straight away, take it or shut up. But you'll have to explain that to all the citizens of Scotland.", these SNP people would crap themselves and shut up.

Scotland would be screwed as a peripheral region of the EU, and they know it. Only if Brussels promised them a lot of bribes (causing other regions to demand the same) would it conceivably gain anything in being in the EU separate from England. And it would still be a very risky bead: the moment Brussels was seen poaching bits of the UK, the UK's government would be free to poach countries out of the EU. That's something the EU in its decadent situation just can't afford. Sturgeon may go to Brussels be listened and even encouraged by some bureaucrats, but the heads of government will send her packing back to Scotland.

 

[Traitorfish]

If Scottish Labour gets rid of its Blairites, there won't be anything left.

 

[innonimatu]

If Scottish Labour gets rid of its Blairites, there won't be anything left.

Sometimes you need to clear all the crap and start over... anyway, the interesting things to watch for in Europe now will be the fight within the Labour party, and the elections in Spain.

It's funny how pundits get things wrong. They predicted that the Republicans in the US would be torn apart in the current presidential election, but things are shaping up for the Democracts being torn apart. And in the UK they predicted that the Conservatives would have an internal war, but Labour seems about to have an even more intense one,

 

[Traitorfish]

Sometimes you need to clear all the crap and start over...

That's what the SNP have been arguing, yes.

 

[innonimatu]

That's what the SNP have been arguing, yes.

I like the idea of small countries. But a Scotland in the EU... it's jumping from the pool to the shark tank. Would the scots, who ultimately must approve any such move, allow it?

 

[Traitorfish]

45% approved it explicitly less than two years ago. Not unreasonable to imagine that the missing 6% might see Scotland in the EU as preferable to Britain outside the EU. It's not as if a second referendum would be brought suddenly, in a panic: it would involve a second referendum campaign, and the Yes campaign would be arguing from that the advantage that so many of the promises made by the Better Together campaign in 2014- extended powers, safeguarded public services, security in the EU- have crumbled to dust. What could Better Together say to that- "let's go down with the ship"?

 

[Arwon]

I'm shocked - shocked - to find ardent supporters of England leaving the European Union now ardently arguing against Scottish self-determination.

 

[Kyriakos]

Problem is, there's no such thing as "internal English matters", strictly speaking. The highest sub-division of the United Kingdom is the region, not the "nation", of which there are twelve, not four. Three of the region have been accorded national status and had certain legislative rights reserved to them, while the other nine have not, and the inhabitants of those regions have never shown much interest in having such rights reserved to them. It would possible to exclude MPs from the national regions from voting on issues which have been reserved to their assemblies, but even that wouldn't constitute a distinct subdivision of the country with its own "internal matters", because there still wouldn't be any distinct entity called "England".


I think you might be confusing Europe with Westeros.

Nice that two of those regions are already 'nations'

 

[Snorrius]

I'm shocked - shocked - to find ardent supporters of England leaving the European Union now ardently arguing against Scottish self-determination.

Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi

 

[Kyriakos]

^

And iirc all of Job's oxen died.

 

[Birdjaguar]

^

And iirc all of Job's oxen died.

"Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" what is permissible for Jove (god) is not permissible for oxen (people).

Job's problems were of a different sort.

 

[innonimatu]

I'm shocked - shocked - to find ardent supporters of England leaving the European Union now ardently arguing against Scottish self-determination.

Who is ardently arguing against anything? If you're talking about me, I'm questioning the likelihood of an independence of Scotland happening anytime soon.

 

[Lexicus]

Who is ardently arguing against anything? If you're talking about me, I'm questioning the likelihood of an independence of Scotland happening anytime soon.

I was going to say it seemed more like you were arguing that it wouldn't happen, not that it would be bad. Though I guess you did say you think it would be worse for the Scottish.

 

[Akka]

I'm shocked - shocked - to find ardent supporters of England leaving the European Union now ardently arguing against Scottish self-determination.

You're surprised that blind liars who would happily distort any fact to fuel their hatred of the EU end up being hypocrites ? You must not have followed their broken logic much.

 

[Arwon]

Well since they're people (not in this thread, certainly in the campaign and on social media) who are willing to make ahistorical slavery and colonisation analogies with regard to *Britain* I certainly don't expect much consistency

Who is ardently arguing against anything? If you're talking about me, I'm questioning the likelihood of an independence of Scotland happening anytime soon.

EE and a couple of other blokes