Histrionic much? We cannot govern our country? And you're allegedly running project hope? Get off it, man.
Is Britain about to leave the EU?
- Thread starter Mega Tsunami
- Start date
- Status
Histrionic much? We cannot govern our country? And you're allegedly running project hope? Get off it, man.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Borachio
Way past lunacy
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 26,698
I don't deny the logic of it.
But it doesn't say much for the pull of the EU, does it?
It means the mere existence of the EU, even in its current form, is better than its non-existence. And that belonging to such an EU, even in its current form, is better than leaving it. It couldn't be clearer.
The fact is that the EU in its current form is flawed. Brexit supporters and anti-EU people point at those flaws and draw the conclusion that the EU is the worst thing that's happened to mankind since the third reich. These people usually (not always I'll admit) have an ideological bias. For the most part it's about "sovereignty", which actually means nationalism : the idea that one's nation is superior to others', and that with your fellow countrymen you want to make decisions that are good first and foremost to your countrymen, even at the expense of the rest of the world.
I respect nationalism just as much as I respect other ideologies. Which is, much more than most people nowadays, when the main ideology is pragmatism and whatever works, and most people hate ideologies. But I'm certain that the bias many people have from nationalism is making Brits overestimate the flaws of the EU and the dangers of staying in, and underestimate the enormous problems that leaving would create.
Yes leaving the EU might feel like an adventure, where Britain could go through all the challenges and have it work in the end. Just like crossing the amazonian rainforest alone and naked is an adventure that, if successful, would make a great story to tell your grandkids. It doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 26,698
I'm not sure that the UK and the EU wouldn't both be better off if the UK left.
I fancy that the rest of the EU see the UK as a disruptive influence without very much to contribute (beyond its 8 billion net annual subscription).
And the UK itself yearns for closer ties with the Commonwealth, and the US.
(Not that there's any way to determine the truth of this matter, of course. One can just express opinions, and that's all.)
I fancy that the rest of the EU see the UK as a disruptive influence without very much to contribute (beyond its 8 billion net annual subscription).
And the UK itself yearns for closer ties with the Commonwealth, and the US.
(Not that there's any way to determine the truth of this matter, of course. One can just express opinions, and that's all.)
The UK leaving could make other members choose to leave as well. So that's one problem with letting the UK go from the EU's POV. Else I agree that it would have a mostly positive impact on EU politics. The worst situation is the current one, where the UK doesn't want to be involved in anything, but wants to have a say in everything the countries that are actually involved do, just in case it has an influence on them.
Akka
Moody old mage.
The arguments ? Peace first and foremost. Then a dream of a more united Europe which could have more of a say in the world and maybe give a chance to resist the social dumping. Building a future with your neighbours instead of against them.
Of course, it's a hard sell for cynics, or for people who'd rather blame Europe for problems which would exist without it, even when it's actually alleviating them - they basically blame it because it doesn't fix them all, but they wouldn't be magically fixed without it either, they would just have nobody to blame instead.
But I see Europe as a hope for the future, just as it managed to keep most of the continent cooperating for the first time in 2000 years.
While the original reason for starting the EC certainly was to prevent future wars of the magnitude of WW I and II - for which the inclusion of (West-)Germany was considered imperative, I think presently the primary reason would be economic.
That said, there is no objection to the UK leaving. It's not a secession. Whether it's a sound decision remains to be seen - I don't expect the disastrous results predicted by certain politicians. I'm just not sure whether the advantages weigh up to the disadvantages. But as with anything, these things are hard to predict. I find the focus on doom and gloom to be over the top: proponents should focus on the positive effects of EU membership, not some supposed unknown danger when leaving it. Similarly, opponents should be realistic about the supposed positive effects of discontinuing EU membership. It certainly isn't a panacea, and this should be made perfectly clear.
Theoretically it could, but it doesn't. If so, EU proponents would have been shouting this from the roof tops. The trend, in fact, has been in the opposite direction in recent years, resulting in a 20 plus country EU.
That said, there is no objection to the UK leaving. It's not a secession. Whether it's a sound decision remains to be seen - I don't expect the disastrous results predicted by certain politicians. I'm just not sure whether the advantages weigh up to the disadvantages. But as with anything, these things are hard to predict. I find the focus on doom and gloom to be over the top: proponents should focus on the positive effects of EU membership, not some supposed unknown danger when leaving it. Similarly, opponents should be realistic about the supposed positive effects of discontinuing EU membership. It certainly isn't a panacea, and this should be made perfectly clear.
Theoretically it could, but it doesn't. If so, EU proponents would have been shouting this from the roof tops. The trend, in fact, has been in the opposite direction in recent years, resulting in a 20 plus country EU.
EnglishEdward
Deity
Jeremy Corbyn (Leader of the UK Labour party) has just made the
best pro Stay speech and case that I have heard so far.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36039925
I remain sceptical because I am less of an optimistic idealist than Jeremy.
(International readers should note that there are contested local elections
in May in the UK before the UK referendum on the EU; hence Jeremy's criticism
of our Prime Minister, David Cameron and the Conservatives and UKIP parties.)
best pro Stay speech and case that I have heard so far.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36039925
I remain sceptical because I am less of an optimistic idealist than Jeremy.
(International readers should note that there are contested local elections
in May in the UK before the UK referendum on the EU; hence Jeremy's criticism
of our Prime Minister, David Cameron and the Conservatives and UKIP parties.)
Well, that's essentially my botton line too. Even if you don't believe that the Tories are the nasty party, that Westminster can be trusted not to turn the UK into a corporate dystopia or any number of other issues, it is an incontrovertible fact that we can only help to change the EU by staying in it.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2006
- Messages
- 15,377
A bunch of people in Greece already had the delusion that the EU could be changed. Turned out it couldn't.
You can help the people who live in the EU by hastening the demise of the EU.
Well I dont know why not. I myself would like to be convinced that UK will reform EU, but so far only words. Otherwise we should learn from mistakes of past and make collapse less painful. Brexit should be important positive factor if done properly.
UK has a number of positive qualities, but it is not able nor meaning to change the EU.
I also cautiously think (hope?) it will vote to leave. Judging by the report of the bank of Britain (that such a move will harm the UK economy) i suppose the outcome can easily be to leave. Such news usually are not just 'matter of fact', but toned as a scare, whether factual or not.
Btw, the EU's possible disintegration indeed will come with war issues as well, although obviously not for all of the countries. Anyway, for Greece it can't be worse, and the EU tie through 'liberal democracy' died with the massive expansion in 2004. Virtually none of the new countries have liberal ideas (some even are quite strikingly zenophobic), and in turn made this union a merely economical one, where supremacy was made more devastating.
I also cautiously think (hope?) it will vote to leave. Judging by the report of the bank of Britain (that such a move will harm the UK economy) i suppose the outcome can easily be to leave. Such news usually are not just 'matter of fact', but toned as a scare, whether factual or not.
Btw, the EU's possible disintegration indeed will come with war issues as well, although obviously not for all of the countries. Anyway, for Greece it can't be worse, and the EU tie through 'liberal democracy' died with the massive expansion in 2004. Virtually none of the new countries have liberal ideas (some even are quite strikingly zenophobic), and in turn made this union a merely economical one, where supremacy was made more devastating.
Its hilarious how exactly opossite to reality is this. The most of continental EU problems are almost exclusively western EU one (Euro, migrants, terrorism) and source of problems are steps from economical union to fascism (Lisbon treaty, enforcing "solidarity" against laws and against principles of democracy, growing powers of european institutions and general distrust to discuss opossite ideas).
- Status
Similar threads
