Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[FriendlyFire]

Living standards have been slowly declining for the great
majority of people here in the UK for the last thirteen years.

While myself as an older person (aged 60) and other such have in part
been sheltered from that decline so far, we do not expect that sheltering
to continue and can see that the next generations are getting a poor deal.

There has been a growing feeling against the elite; whether corporate fat
cats diverting money due to pension funds into their own pocket or EU officials.

Strangely enough for a Leaver, I think that the EU officials and politicians
are often more competent and less corrupt than our own in the UK.

This is why the decision not to provide for direct elections and accountability
in the constitution or treaty for EU President and senior officials has been a
factor driving the Leave vote in the UK although most Leavers are not knowing of it.

If we had had EU wide elections for a EU President, and a EU Prime Minister and
a EU Chancellor etc, the UK populace might well have been enthused to support the EU.

As it is the appointment of such officials is very indirect, and having our interests
supposedly represented by UK politicians (who we really do not trust at all)
indirectly participating in the process of their appointment does not feel enough.

Dosnt the UK having retained its own currency set its own financial and monetary policies ? The UK also has a separate EU treaty for immigration, which allows the UK to set immigration policy for Non-EU citizens ?
All countries appoint their EU representatives with terms and means of firing / recalling them.

Why would you want to elect the EU President ? The EU President has zero powers unlike an actual head of a country What a total waste of euromonies I bet no one would even give a crap who is elected.
All EU decision previously required Unanimity which means 100% of all member states had to be in agreement to any new laws to pass. Only with the recent crisis has the EU moved to majority vote given how slow the EU is to make any decisions and act during a crisis.

Do you know actually how the President of the EU is selected ? Or what he even dose ?

The most legitimate reason is that the economics of the EU have failed, which is pretty reasonable given that the EZ was never really designed to deal with financial crisis.
And resentment of the Large EU countries subsidizing / aiding the poorer EU countries. This was more of a German war guilt thing I guess people arent happy seeing money being sent to Greece Bank bailouts

 

[EnglishEdward]

Muslim leaders are constantly required to condemn things done in their name. Every time there's some terrorist act committed in the name of Islam and/or by a Muslim, everyone demands that Muslims condemn it, or criticise Muslim leaders for not condemning it. I don't see how this is any different.

I do not demand that Muslims condemn terrorist acts,
or criticise Muslim leaders for not condemning them.

I'd regard it as quite rude to make such demands.

As long as Muslims do not actively knowingly contribute to terrorism,
and obey our shared laws, I am happy for them to carry on with their lives.

And so I do not feel the need to condemn each racist attack.

 

[really]

Johnson just chickened out of the Tory leadership contest.

Gove stabbed him in the front this morning by standing.

Boris was all talk.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Why would you want to elect the EU President ? The EU President has zero powers unlike an actual head of a country What a total waste of euromonies I bet no one would even give a crap who is elected.

It is to do with democratic accountability and a EU President might be granted significant powers, particularly if there was a recall vote provision.

If we had voted Remain, I'd have supported such a campaign.

But all this is moot, as we voted Leave.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Johnson just chickened out of the Tory leadership contest.

Gove stabbed him in the front this morning by standing.

Boris was all talk.

Lack of Moral Fibre

Please tell me; are people in the Republic concerned or laughing?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

you ignored the fact that I deliberately listed many leave voters that would condemn racism and I said they are not responsible, so you are left taking offence at my listing racists who attack mosques and synagogues and held banners at leave rallies as the problem going forward

why, on earth are you so offended when people call out racism as a problem

The line of yours that I quoted was a bit unclear and maybe I misunderstood it. You appeared to be saying "both sides need to call out the racism, but only those on the leave side are doing", which I objected to.

 

[Kyriakos]

BJohnson always was an utter clown anyway. Don't know much about Gove, but from a few videos he sounds like a more sinister-undercurrent type of politician.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I have a hard time reconciling the whole "give us back sovereignty" and scarmongering about "European Superstate" with "we would be much more enthusiast about having a much higher integration into a common political construct".

You don't need to reconcile it. You can't expect 17 million people (or even a tiny subset of them involved in campaigning or visible discussion) to speak with a coherent voice and share exactly the same views. Different reasoning is to be entirely expected.

 

[Arakhor]

For all his faults, there have been three referendums under David Cameron, and each and every one of those was a good thing, bringing democracy back to the people.

Do tell how the failed referendum to get rid of FPTP brought democracy to the people. If anything, it just confirmed that the electorate have no idea what they actually need, rather than want.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Do tell how the failed referendum to get rid of FPTP brought democracy to the people. If anything, it just confirmed that the electorate have no idea what they actually need, rather than want.

The proposed AV system was stupid, "fixed" a few problems that weren't really problems anyway, and addressed none of the actual problems with FPTP. That's why it was rejected. Voting for AV would not have brought any more democracy to anyone.

However, giving us the CHOICE to vote for it did, in and of itself, bring democracy to the people. Albeit on a very small and insignificant issue.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Do tell how the failed referendum to get rid of FPTP brought democracy to the people. If anything, it just confirmed that the electorate have no idea what they actually need, rather than want.

Being rude about the electorate!


The decision was made by the people, and not by the politicians,
which is why that referendum brought democracy to the people.

And it very clearly confirmed that the people wanted to retain
the existing FPTP system rather than change to Alternative Voting.

I voted for changing from FPTP, but I am content with the people's vote.

 

[Old Hippy]

The line of yours that I quoted was a bit unclear and maybe I misunderstood it. You appeared to be saying "both sides need to call out the racism, but only those on the leave side are doing", which I objected to.

most of my posts lead to confusion, I'm told
what I meant is both sides need to call out racism, and the leave side has a small subset of people that have used racism to their advantage and when this is called out for what it is, a lot of people seem to get upset. it is not personnel,

 

[Samson]

Boris pulls out!!!!

Ex-London mayor Boris Johnson has ruled himself out of the race to be the next Conservative leader and prime minister.
In a speech in London - billed as his campaign launch - Mr Johnson said he did not believe he could provide the leadership or unity needed.
It comes after Justice Secretary and fellow Brexit campaigner Michael Gove's surprise announcement on Thursday morning that he would run for leader.
Home Secretary Theresa May is among the candidates. Nominations closed at noon.

The coward ?? [EDIT] Actually it seems he may be admitting that he could not do the job. I think that may actually be quite brave.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It is to do with democratic accountability and a EU President might be granted significant powers, particularly if there was a recall vote provision.

If we had voted Remain, I'd have supported such a campaign.

But all this is moot, as we voted Leave.

You want EU wide elections every 5 years for a President that has no powers ? Only the EC President has power and that is limited to assigning portfolios and remove portfolios.
EC President can be removed by a vote by the EC Parliament and this has actually happened once

 

[Samson]

Reading through the posts on the BBC live politics boris tracker thing it seems like the tory leadership race will be about selecting the right "this is the deal with the EU I want" message for the tory membership. This is a very important decision for a very select and much maligned section of he population. I wonder if any posters here are in that club?

BTW, we cannot now join and have our say:

PARTY MEMBER (STANDARD)

Members play an active role in the Conservative Party, can attend our annual Party Conference and receive voting rights in Party elections, once you have been a member for three months.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

most of my posts lead to confusion, I'm told
what I meant is both sides need to call out racism, and the leave side has a small subset of people that have used racism to their advantage and when this is called out for what it is, a lot of people seem to get upset. it is not personnel,

I disagree because, when you say "the leave side", you're talking about 17 million unaffiliated people who are only united by the fact they voted the same way in a referendum. There's no accountability amongst this group for any actions performed by some other members of the group, because they're just a bunch of individuals.

 

[really]

Lack of Moral Fibre

Please tell me; are people in the Republic concerned or laughing?

The shock is subsiding.
Concern would be putting it mildly.

Pragmatism is taking over. Ireland had been arguing to help the UK in the negotiations last year and lobbyied hard for a remain vote.
Now a lot of the talk is about looking out for Irish interests rather than trying to help the UK.
Minimise damage, maximise opportunities.

Lobbying for Scotland has already begun.

 

[Arwon]

The proposed AV system was stupid, "fixed" a few problems that weren't really problems anyway, and addressed none of the actual problems with FPTP. That's why it was rejected. Voting for AV would not have brought any more democracy to anyone.

However, giving us the CHOICE to vote for it did, in and of itself, bring democracy to the people. Albeit on a very small and insignificant issue.

Compared to FPTP? Speaking from experience it's a massive improvement.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't know what the changes would be, so cannot commend. But FPTP is a really horrible system. Only worth using in some very small municipalities, but not so as to divide the whole country into equal sized electoral regions and have FPTP everywhere.

 

[Arwon]

I don't know what the changes would be, so cannot commend. But FPTP is a really horrible system. Only worth using in some very small municipalities, but not so as to divide the whole country into equal sized electoral regions and have FPTP everywhere.

We call it preferential voting and use it for our lower house (the Senate is a form of proportional called Single Transferrable Vote, also used in Ireland). Americans call it Instant Runoff.

Basically you number/rank the candidates and if nobody gets a majority of '1' votes, preferences are distributed by eliminating the least popular candidate and distributing by '2' and subsequent preferences, repeatedly until someone has a majority.

Within the bounds of single-member electorates it is strictly superior. Its huge advantage is that it eliminates the need for tactical voting and eliminates the issues with vote-splitting, so everyone just has to vote their honest order of preference, instead of guessing which "lesser evil" they think has the best chance of beating the "greater evil". It also ensures the candidate that wins is the most-preferred by 50%+1 in the electorate and would win any given two-way contest, hence why Americans call it Instant Runoff.