Is Elon Musk a fraud?

Is Elon Musk a fraud?

  • Yes, he is a fraud

    Votes: 46 69.7%
  • No, he isn't a fraud

    Votes: 20 30.3%

  • Total voters
    66
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Kyriakos

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I hadn't paid almost any attention to Musk, until very recently - when he made the bid to buy Twitter. But since then, I have watched a number of videos on him and his companies.
My original impression - mostly due to how Musk keeps being presented (by himself and his supporters) as a science-oriented person - was that Musk would at least have an MA in a rigorous scientific order, something like physics or engineering. But it turns out he only has a BA (not even a BS) in a Physics program.
Then I learned of how he continuously makes announcements about new tech being fully complete and working, within 1-2 years, and those announcements always fail to materialize - but in the meantime have attracted capital from investors, giving those companies a new supply of cash and ballooning their stock price. A good example of that is his most lucrative company, Tesla, where the price is something like 1 trillion (for the entire company), but it produces only around 1% of new cars in the US and has time and again failed to provide new tech it promised to have ready (such as self-driving cars).

The more stuff I see about Musk, the more it appears that he is essentially a luckier version of Elizabeth Holmes, having created a pyramid scheme to lure investors with promises of new tech and products, but then paying those investors only through new investment due to hype (instead of the product actually becoming better or incorporating any new tech).

Now, with the Twitter fiasco, which (afaik) will see court due to Twitter not letting Musk walk out of the deal he blundered himself into making, it is possible that Musk will have to sell more than 2/3 of his own stock in Tesla to get the 41-45 billion dollars required to buy a company (Twitter) that is losing money each year. It's not a sound economic plan at all, even if he would manage to sell Twitter for (say) a 10 billion profit; selling off his Tesla shares would diminish their price with every new batch sold, which in turn will reduce his own worth by tens of billions.

This thread also includes a poll, so you can select if, in your view, Musk is a fraud, or not.
 
He is an eccentric billionaire who can pretty much do and say whatever he wants. He has viable businesses that actually do things. He can afford to fritter away $100 billion and still be obscenely rich. He was born into money and used that platform to become even richer. He has upended the auto business and the space industry; making a profit may not be his goal or even necessary. He likes attention and younger women. So what? He is smart enough to be the richest person in the world and likely his last foray into twitter won't be his last "Look at me". Looking at just his twitter escapade is a pretty shallow approach.

Philanthropy

Musk is president of the Musk Foundation,[265] whose stated purpose is to provide solar-power energy systems in disaster areas; support research, development, and advocacy (for interests including human space exploration, pediatrics, renewable energy and "safe artificial intelligence"); and support science and engineering educational efforts.[266] From 2002 to 2018, it gave out $25 million directly to non-profits, nearly half of which went to Musk's OpenAI,[267] which was at the time a non-profit organization.[268]

Since 2002, the foundation has made over 350 contributions. Around half were to scientific research or education nonprofits. Notable beneficiaries include the Wikimedia Foundation, his alma mater the University of Pennsylvania, and his brother Kimbal's Big Green.[269] In 2012, Musk took the Giving Pledge, thereby committing to give the majority of his wealth to charitable causes either during his lifetimes or in his will.[270] He has endowed prizes at the X Prize Foundation, including $100 million to reward improved carbon capture technology.[271][272][273]

Vox described the foundation as "almost entertaining in its simplicity and yet is strikingly opaque", noting that its website was only 33 words in plain-text.[267] The foundation has been criticized for the relatively small amount of wealth donated.[274] In 2020, Forbes gave Musk a philanthropy score of 1, because he had given away less than 1% of his net worth.[269] In November 2021, Musk donated $5.7 billion of Tesla's shares to charity;[275] however, Fortune magazine noted that no nonprofits subsequently announced receiving any money from Musk, despite his November 2021 regulatory filing citing earmarking 5.7 billion worth of his Tesla shares for charity.[276]
He also has other less publicized endeavors.
 
Spoiler :
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Voted no because I'm not deluding myself with a hateboner. Obviously a guy who actually does a bunch of things is going to say the wrong things and look bad according to the intelligentsia. His antiunion anti safety practices are deplorable, but not fraudulent in his ability to drive creation.
 
He is an eccentric billionaire who can pretty much do and say whatever he wants. He has viable businesses that actually do things. He can afford to fritter away $100 billion and still be obscenely rich. He was born into money and used that platform to become even richer. He has upended the auto business and the space industry; making a profit may not be his goal or even necessary. He likes attention and younger women. So what? He is smart enough to be the richest person in the world and likely his last foray into twitter won't be his last "Look at me". Looking at just his twitter escapade is a pretty shallow approach.
His net worth is (afaik) calculated to be around 250 billion, but not much of that is available as cash; most is stock in Tesla. And each time you sell (so vast) amounts of stock, it makes the price drop, which in turn means the next sell of a batch of stocks will cause an even larger drop. I have seen it argued that Musk would need to sell virtually all of his stock in Tesla that isn't already held up due to other reasons, in order to go near the 45 billion in cash and pay for a falling (loss each year) company like Twitter.
No one cares about Felon ( :) ) liking "young women" or "fast cars", but he has a record of promising stuff coming "next year" which never come around, which in turn makes his companies survive on hype and promise that they will at some point release the tech people invested in them expecting to see. That is pretty much a pyramid scheme: the company has no worth (or very little worth, in Musk's case) other than due to stock being in demand.
 
You could argue his stock enjoys bubble prices but he's making top notch cars (the haters pretend they're bad, but the owners love them), he reusable steel rockets that will go down in history, pushing battery tech well beyond everyone else, and other endeavors. The question is not is he a fraud, it's, is he going to Kanye himself into a corner or icarus himself into oblivion. nb Kanye "is" (was) the best, icarus was the briefly the best.

The cybertruck is going to be built with super duper duper treated steel, leftover from SpaceX rocket production, that no other car company will have the infrastructure to compete with.

He's an industrialist creating real things. Nonbelievers are smoking the copium. It's right in front of our faces.
 
Eh what does "fraud" entail?

He has a bunch of wasted escapades that are kind of a laughingstock to people that know the nature of these things. I remember him proposing and designing private underground one lane "tunnels" to solve traffic. An absolute trashfire of a concept, and if it displays anything, it's not prestige or innovation, but complete lack of understanding of traffic.

He has a cult following among crypto bros and people of similar mind that don't actually know what they're doing.

That said, while this is partly his fault, it doesn't take away from the fact that he does do some lucrative business. He's not a fraud in this sense. He inherited a lot of money, and with it secured some capable people under him that make things people buy. That's what good businessmen do.
 
You could argue his stock enjoys bubble prices but he's making top notch cars (the haters pretend they're bad, but the owners love them), he reusable steel rockets that will go down in history, pushing battery tech well beyond everyone else, and other endeavors. The question is not is he a fraud, it's, is he going to Kanye himself into a corner or icarus himself into oblivion. nb Kanye "is" (was) the best, icarus was the briefly the best.

The cybertruck is going to be built with super duper duper treated steel, leftover from SpaceX rocket production, that no other car company will have the infrastructure to compete with.

He's an industrialist creating real things. Nonbelievers are smoking the copium. It's right in front of our faces.

That "cybertruck" has been supposed to be ready for how many years now? 8?
Why expect it to ever be ready.

Eh what does "fraud" entail?

Fraud in this context is about having your company exist only due to hype and people investing, not due to the actual product, and with all new tech promised (to lure those investors) never materializing.
Besides, Tesla wasn't created by Musk. He wasn't even a founder (but the issue is how ballooned its price is, when taking into account what it has or can realistically provide; other manufacturers build electric cars too).
 
No. It was announced in 2019. Between 2020-2022 there was a chip shortage stopping worldwide car production.
 
No. It was announced in 2019. Between 2020-2022 there was a chip shortage stopping worldwide car production.
The 8 year one must be of those other repeated annual promises. Maybe about the Tesla self-driving-car without need of a human driver? Didn't Musk promise this to buyers who would (in his words) have the self-driving car work on its own as a taxi and thus make them a yearly profit of 30K dollars?
 
He's only human.

If you could make billions from one tweet you'd probably do it too.

He's clearly a manic or @ least hypo-manic personality.

Obviously many of his claims are horses*** like bases on Mars and whatnot but I suspect much of the time he believes his own hype.

His dumbest statement imo is that the world is underpopulated.

He's about what one could expect from an awkward kid bullied in school & thrown down stairs who is now one of the most powerful people in the world.

Don't see him as a fraud, just a hype-seller.
 
Besides, Tesla wasn't created by Musk. He wasn't even a founder (but the issue is how ballooned its price is, when taking into account what it has or can realistically provide; other manufacturers build electric cars too).
I have heard all of these points talked about in the same manner.

1) who cares if 3 dudes in a living room "created" Tesla before Musk. They didn't have anything until he took it over.
2) It's way harder to scale than to found a company
3) Other car companies are only making electric cars in the wake of Tesla, and except for Lucid, built by Tesla alumns, and one 100k mercedes, 5 of the top 7 battery ranges are Tesla. The cybertruck will be 1st or 2nd when it comes out. Range is the #1 hurdle in viable EVs and Musk pushed range when the other companies wouldn't (Nissan Leaf from 8 years ago was like 60 miles? Base Model 3 is 275 miles)

4) Car companies are literally taught in econ classes as an example of an oligopoly where new entrants starting in the USA cannot succeed. Tesla broke this rule.
 
The 8 year one must be of those other repeated annual promises. Maybe about the Tesla self-driving-car without need of a human driver? Didn't Musk promise this to buyers who would (in his words) have the self-driving car work on its own as a taxi and thus make them a yearly profit of 30K dollars?
The entire tech industry thought it could be done. And it sort of can, any time I go across the bay to San Francisco I see a bunch of robot cars. But it turned out to be a much more difficult engineering problem than anticipated, and no one wants a stupid spinning camera on top of their car.
 
The entire tech industry thought it could be done. And it sort of can, any time I go across the bay to San Francisco I see a bunch of robot cars. But it turned out to be a much more difficult engineering problem than anticipated, and no one wants a stupid spinning camera on top of their car.
I read that those "self-driving cars" won't even stop at red traffic lights. So the premise is, for the foreseable future, a lie - yet Musk keeps selling (in advance) such cars.
 
His net worth is (afaik) calculated to be around 250 billion, but not much of that is available as cash; most is stock in Tesla. And each time you sell (so vast) amounts of stock, it makes the price drop, which in turn means the next sell of a batch of stocks will cause an even larger drop. I have seen it argued that Musk would need to sell virtually all of his stock in Tesla that isn't already held up due to other reasons, in order to go near the 45 billion in cash and pay for a falling (loss each year) company like Twitter.
No one cares about Felon ( :) ) liking "young women" or "fast cars", but he has a record of promising stuff coming "next year" which never come around, which in turn makes his companies survive on hype and promise that they will at some point release the tech people invested in them expecting to see. That is pretty much a pyramid scheme: the company has no worth (or very little worth, in Musk's case) other than due to stock being in demand.
Every billionaire's assets are mostly illiquid. Cash holdings have been a terrible choice for most of the past decade. You should stop getting your news from Twitter and get a better understanding business.
 
I read that those "self-driving cars" won't even stop at red traffic lights. So the premise is, for the foreseable future, a lie - yet Musk keeps selling (in advance) such cars.
:lol: I suggest you read find better things to read. If not stopping at red lights is your measure of success, human drivers are far more guilty than the very few examples of AI errors.
 
Every billionaire's assets are mostly illiquid. Cash holdings have been a terrible choice for most of the past decade. You should stop getting your news from Twitter and get a better understanding business.
This is surprising, because no one said it is rare to not have cash in such amounts. Somehow you missed that the lack of cash was mentioned as a problem due to the vast amount he will have to pay for Twitter, which surely can only be done by selling stock=> tanking the price with each batch and thus needing progressively more for the same amount.
 
Musk is a geek-oriented snake oil salesman.
Like again, his actual real cars lead the industry right now. But keep smoking the copium!
 
:lol: I suggest you read find better things to read. If not stopping at red lights is your measure of success, human drivers are far more guilty than the very few examples of AI errors.
It means the car will get you killed. What do you think happens when a fast car moves into incoming traffic because it didn't bother to stop at the light, omg.
 
This is surprising, because no one said it is rare to not have cash in such amounts. Somehow you missed that the lack of cash was mentioned as a problem due to the vast amount he will have to pay for Twitter, which surely can only be done by selling stock=> tanking the price with each batch and thus needing progressively more for the same amount.
Passive voice. The original twitter deal was a combination of debt and cash and like most buyouts, the capital stack needed to close any deal is a combination of sources (stock, bonds, cash, etc. Selling stock to raise capital is pretty normal. Musk drew the spotlight because he was selling a lot of stock. Musk didn't care that he drove the price down. Business pontificators "always" like to second guess business owners who are in the news. It makes good headlines and drives readership by ignorant people.
It means the car will get you killed. What do you think happens when a fast car moves into incoming traffic because it didn't bother to stop at the light, omg.
in 2019 939 deaths were caused by red light runners in the US. How many AI cars have run red lights and how many deaths did they cause?
 
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