Is Elon Musk a fraud?

[EvaDK]

Musk owes his current worth almost entirely to Tesla Motors investors. The company is worth ~$200,000 for each single car they have manufactured to date. Eleven months ago, it was closer to $275,000 per car.

The value is likely to keep 'normalising' when all their competitors switch over to wide ranges of EVs the next 5-10 years and a Tesla just becomes a 'normal average' car.

 

[Gorbles]

Because that still would not make him a "fraud" - it is also not the topic of this thread.

Maybe it'd be helpful, instead of contributing literally nothing beyond the repeated suggestion that everyone is merely jealous, if you define what you think a fraud is.

Then there could be an actual discussion, instead of people listing a bunch of things and you repeatedly saying "doesn't count".

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And that makes him a fraud or less successful?

it makes him a scumbag bro

 

[raystuttgart]

if you define what you think a fraud is.

A fraud is somebody who is purposely lying about what his intentions are and breaking his word e.g. related to contracts.
I have never seen that Elon Musk was actually lying or broke his word - infact he seems to be quite open and honest in what he does.

So if you can show me that he has been lying about his business intentions or broke one of his contracts or easily gave up when things got hard we can call him a fraud.
But simply being arrogant and maybe overly confident in his own success or maybe having had an unpopular opinion does not justify to call him fraud.

Is that definition enough of "fraud"?

it makes him a scumbag bro

Maybe, but I wonder how you would act if you were as rich as him and had as many enviers and enemies as he does.
I think he is also just human and has good sides and bad sides like we all do ... bashing him for that will not change it.

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Summary:
Scumbag - maybe ... but it is not up to me to judge people I never met.
Fraud - no ... he actually seems to stand to his word and take responsibility for his actions.

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That is way more than I can say about almost 90% percent of our politicians today. At least he is hard working, honest and dares to take a risk for the things he actually believes in ...
Most of our politicans however I actually consider frauds ... as most of them are lying shamelessly just to get a few more votes or likes to ensure that they stay in power.

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In other words, I rather have smart, honest, hard working people that stand for their believes than stupid cowardly lyers that do everything for being popular.
The first one may be hard to bear and annoying ... but the second one will cheat you whenever he can gain personal profit.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not sure if you are being serious about Elon not breaking his word, but he has made literally tens of highly publicized promises which ended up being lies. Including for the hyperloop, cybertruck, Mars landings, Tesla full-self-driving and everything else.
Those weren't honest mistakes either; promises were made to lure in pre-paid buyers and inflate Tesla price on hype. Some of those products were being sold to them as being ready 7 years ago, and still are not.

 

[raystuttgart]

... but he has made literally tens of highly publicized promises which ended up being lies.

Do you really think he was purposely lying ? I don`t.
Do sometimes promises of a business owner turn out to be false ... sure.

You now claim that all his maybe deluded and overly confident promisses were lies made purposely ... and maybe he actually even had a dobut ... but it is still best to give it a try and fight.
Trust me, every company boss or manager does that ... he makes promises to motivate his people and he believes them most of the time ... but he is not trying to cheat them.

There is always a chance to fail. Nothing is certain in this world. And often the most risky ventures are the most rewarding ones.
But without being confident and believing in success and trying to convince others of it ... you do not even have to try.

Or do you think e.g. that now the people fighting at the front in Ukraine (on both sides) promissing their soldier victory are also frauds?
They actually believe in victory most likely themselves and have to tell it their troops so they stay motivated to keep going.

It is just the same in business as a manager ... so nothing he said was somehow special in the business world.
What made him special is how often he was actually successful after all and how often he recovered from failure.

Again, that is not fraud.
That comes with owning a company and leading people.

 

[Kyriakos]

I won't go on about this, because I can't be sure if you mean it or not.
But no, if a person does the same thing over and over and over and over again, it's not logical to claim he wasn't aware. It's a con.
Ironically for Musk, the con would still be going strong, if he hadn't been the opposite of a genius and bought Twitter. As things are, Tesla stock has taken massive hits and won't be overpriced for long.

 

[raystuttgart]

... over and over and over and over again, ...

Yes, he has built and sold multi billion companies over and over again. His success doing so is basically unreal. So he was proven right over and over again in the end.
Was everybody happy with his ways, did everybody benefit ... most likely not. Did he also fail sometimes ... sure. But I still do not see any fraud ...

People like Musk may lie to themselves as they believe so strongly in their own ideas and success ... as they are often extremely overly confident and narcissistic.
But they rarely lie to others about their dreams and visions or their intentions ... they do not try to cheat others ... and that is a difference for me.

I have seen many overly confident and arrogant managers and enough cowardly selfish liers in my life. Three is a huge difference between those two.
At least the first category you can trust to not stab you in the back and stick to their given word ... as their own high lifted self image would not allow them otherwise.

In other words:
Musk may have many flaws like arrogance or being overly confident or even deluded sometimes ... but I do not consider him a treacher, a lier or a fraud.
And yeah, he was also born rich ... but I would not truly consider that a crime or character flaw ... even if some people in these days seem to believe it.

 

[Gorbles]

A fraud is somebody who is purposely lying about what his intentions are and breaking his word e.g. related to contracts.

I have two from the Oxford Dictionary that may help:

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

"a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."

Neither of these require anything to do with a contract.

It looks like your entire defense here, other than accusing people of jealousy on repeat, is to claim that we don't know what he "intended".

We don't. But the purpose of this thread was to demonstrate if it could be argued, and in my opinion it has. The fact that you remain unconvinced literally means nothing. Neither does the thread. It's a thread on a web forum on the Internet.

But it is funny to see the folks who aren't willing to even entertain the concept.

And yeah, he was also born rich ... but I would not truly consider that a crime or character flaw ... even if some people in these days seem to believe it.

Nah my dude, but I think "getting rich in apartheid-era South Africa" holds some weight if that's the argument you want to try and refute.

Good luck!

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Hey @raystuttgart have you ever thought about not defending the racist, transphobic, anti semite with a predilection to facilitating neo nazi rhetoric

 

[raystuttgart]

... not defending the racist, transphobic, anti semite with a predilection to facilitating neo nazi rhetoric ...

Oh boy, now this discussion is getting strange.
As I said, I was not defending him ... I just said I do not think he is a fraud.

But obviously having a different opinion is truly not acceptable these days.
And whenever people run out of arguments they start with nazi accusations ...

Ok, if that is the level of discussion you want to have ... have it alone.
Enjoy your witch hunting and bashing ... maybe it will make you feel better then.

I was mereley suggeting a different perspective ... not saying that everything he did was good.
But different perspectives seem too radical for these days ... as it questions the hate narrative.

 

[Gorbles]

As I said, I was not defending him ... I just said I do not think he is a fraud.

That is literally defending him. Whether or not the accusations are right or wrong, this is factually what defending someone is.

Sadly there isn't much room for "different perspectives" when all you can do is never actually respond to the respond to what folks are saying, instead preferring to accuse them of witch hunts and so on

 

[raystuttgart]

... never actually respond to the respond to what folks are saying ...

Because the rest of what the posts were saying was that people do not like him.
Which is prefectly fine to me ... as I do not necessarily like him myself.

But not liking somebody is no base for accusing somebody of fraud in my eyes.
It is a fundamental base concept of our system that accusations need prove ... which I have not seen.

And yes, that is what I call a witch hunt:
Somebody is attacked because people do not like him, not because he actually did something.

Call it whatevery you like ... but I consider it pathetic.
It is a sad sign of what society these days has become.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't like him because he's a bigot bro, what about this confuses or startles you

 

[raystuttgart]

I don't like him because he's a bigot bro, what about this confuses or startles you

That is totally ok ... but as I said something totally different as a fraud.
But honestly most people are bigotts somehow ... this whole thread is a bit of bigott virtue shining, or is it not?

Or do you want to claim that in your life you have never made any questionable moral decisions.
The main difference between Musk and people like you and me is that he is richer ... not that we are morally better.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

my "questionable moral decisions" aren't going to result in multiple minority groups having a harder time in life bro

 

[raystuttgart]

... multiple minority groups having a harder time in life bro

And here it comes again ... the minority card ... dividing into good and evil is played ... the ultimate joker card.
Thus all arguments trying to maybe find a compromise to stop witch hunting and blaming are off the table ...

Because declaring Musk as a fraud is somehow defending the minorities now ... and all that question it are supporting evil.
All I see is searching for a scapegoat ... somebody unpopular to focus the hate ... and maybe some virtue shining.

Honestly that is pathetic in my eyes as it is all just about anger and hate and framing.
And it will not make the world any better at all ... it will just further radicalise and splits society.

 

[Gorbles]

Because the rest of what the posts were saying was that people do not like him.

That's not all they were saying, no.

But I appreciate you need to ignore any evidence that contradicts your own "virtue signalling". Another culture war dude popping up to defend Elon Musk, very predictable

 

[aelf]

And here it comes again ... the minority card ... dividing into good and evil is played ... the ultimate joker card.
Thus all arguments trying to maybe find a compromise to stop witch hunting and blaming are off the table ...

Because declaring Musk as a fraud is somehow defending the minorities now ... and all that question it are supporting evil.
All I see is searching for a scapegoat ... somebody unpopular to focus the hate ... and maybe some virtue shining.

Honestly that is pathetic in my eyes as it is all just about anger and hate and framing.
And it will not make the world any better at all ... it will just further radicalise and split society.

ok boomer

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And here it comes again ... the minority card ... dividing into good and evil is played ... the ultimate joker card.
Thus all arguments trying to maybe find a compromise to stop witch hunting and blaming are off the table ...

Because declaring Musk as a fraud is somehow defending the minorities now ... and all that question it are supporting evil.
All I see is searching for a scapegoat ... somebody unpopular to focus the hate ... and maybe some virtue shining.

Honestly that is pathetic in my eyes as it is all just about anger and hate and framing.
And it will not make the world any better at all ... it will just further radicalise and split society.

Weird how're you're more upset about me calling him scum than you are about the dude who, coincidentally, is the owner of a website with massive reach turning it into a free for all for neo nazis, racists, anti semites, homophobes and transphobes

You're german right? Have you not learnt of what happens when hate is allowed to operate openly?