Is Isreal overacting?

[storealex]

Was it before or after they aided Hezbollah?

I didn't even know the army did that. Care to enlighten me?

Never the less, the point stands. As long as Israel is bombing the Lebannese army, it really cannot expect it not to become it's enemy.

 

[Gladi]

Is this an excuse for terrorism or what?

But, to play your game, what is the source of injustice in Lebanon? Why Lebanese people should attack Israel, especially when Israel pulled out all of its troops from Lebanon in 2000?

They don't. Hizbollah did. Israel started pounding Lebanon right off the bat without even Austrian-like ultimatum.

 

[happy_Alex]

The only way to have true, lasting peace is if you can give everyone what they want. With the (re)injection of the Israelite nation into the Middle East picture, and 'Zionism' - that is not possible. There is no acceptible solution, to accomodate both the Israelis, and the Arabs.

You're right that pleasing everyone is going to be possible, which is why a compromise is acceptable to the majority of arabs. The PLO has agreed to a two state soloution back in 1986, I think. IMHO many arabs have been very tolerant in accepting the nation of Isreal, and it is time for Isreal to meet the very resonable terms of a compromise offered by the PLO, instead of this current blitzkrieg.

 

[happy_Alex]

Is this an excuse for terrorism or what?

But, to play your game, what is the source of injustice in Lebanon? Why Lebanese people should attack Israel, especially when Israel pulled out all of its troops from Lebanon in 2000?

Read through the thread, it's all there.

 

[Lotus49]

First. Thanks, but I am not as capable as Mr. Bush and I disagree with him on socio-economics. If I was USian I would be War Democrat.

And it should not reming of Nazis and Poland- there it was fabricated attack- are you saying IDF fabricated Hizbollah attacks ?! (and Sudetenland was entirely different cup of coffee)

What it should remind you is Austrian Ultimatum to Serbia. At least the conditions that were met.

And there is one difference- in one case you ar good guy and will kick ass, in the other you are stupid bad guy and will get kicked.

Of course the Nazis were playing a game, doing it themselves. But anway, so you want to cross into my borders, and 'cleanse the population' of the terrorist/rebel fighters. You know, this is actually contrary to what Sidhe was just saying (kill 1, ten more join, etc.), so I don't get it.

You planning a 'Zionist invasion' into an Arab country, and you expect that's going to go smoothly. It doesn't matter if I (the PM) give 'consent'. The people (Arabs) will be outraged, and act on their own. But, you think you can just rush in, blitz the bad guys, and have ever lasting peace. Sounds Bushy to me.

 

[Winner]

I didn't even know the army did that. Care to enlighten me?

Never the less, the point stands. As long as Israel is bombing the Lebannese army, it really cannot expect it not to become it's enemy.

I think Israel counts with the possibility it will have to fight against Lebanese army. That's no big deal since Hezbollah is much stronger anyway.

The point is that Lebanese government tolerated Hezbollah and did nothing to prevent it from attacking Israel. They can't expect to get away with that.

If I invited a sniper into my house and allowed him to kill our Prime Minister, I would be blamed for that and jailed. If Lebanese government tolerate a terrorist organisation in its country and allows it to attack neighbouring country, it has a good reason to expect it will be punished for that.

 

[Gladi]

Of course the Nazis were playing a game, doing it themselves. But anway, so you want to cross into my borders, and 'cleanse the population' of the terrorist/rebel fighters. You know, this is actually contrary to what Sidhe was just saying (kill 1, ten more join, etc.), so I don't get it.

You planning a 'Zionist invasion' into an Arab country, and you expect that's going to go smoothly. It doesn't matter if I (the PM) give 'consent'. The people (Arabs) will be outraged, and act on their own. But, you think you can just rush in, blitz the bad guys, and have ever lasting peace. Sounds Bushy to me.

No you miscontrue my previous statements. In this invasion no dairy farms would be accidentaly destroyed (only if there Hizballahi fighters). And yes it does matter Hizbollah has at best support of third of population. If co-opt the remainder you will have easier time going, but indiscriminate attacks force them to join in with Hizbollah.

Further if the PM refuses you have paper stating that Lebanon is rogue state that harbours terrorsits and your war is at the very least legal and nobody from Egypt, Arabia or any other state can fault you.

 

[Winner]

They don't. Hizbollah did. Israel started pounding Lebanon right off the bat without even Austrian-like ultimatum.

And who, according to you, are members of Hezbollah? Argentinians?

The fact is that some Lebanese people join Hezbollah and attack Israel. I asked why, what is the "source of injustice" that should presumably excuse such actions.

I think there will always be the main "source of injustice" - the existence of State of Israel. I am afraid that as long as it exists, they will perceive it as "injustice".

The point isn't that Israel should be destroyed, but that we shouldn't pay attention to their excuses. After you remove one, they will come up with another until they reach their ultimate goal - destruction of Israel.

 

[Gladi]

I think Israel counts with the possibility it will have to fight against Lebanese army. That's no big deal since Hezbollah is much stronger anyway.

The point is that Lebanese government tolerated Hezbollah and did nothing to prevent it from attacking Israel. They can't expect to get away with that.

If I invited a sniper into my house and allowed him to kill our Prime Minister, I would be blamed for that and jailed. If Lebanese government tolerate a terrorist organisation in its country and allows it to attack neighbouring country, it has a good reason to expect it will be punished for that.

So tell us what they should have done to make you happy. Only thing that occures to me is beg for help.

 

[storealex]

Winner you said it your self. Hisbollah is stronger than the Lebannese army. How should it destroy Hisbollah then? The only thing the army would obtain, would be to further destabilize Libanon. You have to remember that this is a country, which was under occupation until recently, and that it is only one year ago it's President was assasinated.

Syria and Iran are the real scumbags here, and the Lebannese government is screwed no matter what is does. Fight Hisbollah and die. Do nothing and Israel will bomb them.

 

[happy_Alex]

The point isn't that Israel should be destroyed, but that we shouldn't pay attention to their excuses. After you remove one, they will come up with another until they reach their ultimate goal - destruction of Israel.

and what, by you definition is 'the destruction of Israel'?

 

[Gladi]

And who, according to you, are members of Hezbollah? Argentinians?

You know I somehow missed the part where Britain invaded Republic of Ireland after terrorist attacks by IRA.

And Hizbollah goal is retention of power. Their main backer was jsut forced out of country and the government vould start making reforms aimed at diminishing them and possible establishing their own loyal military force , which unlike current Lebanese army won't hae connection to Hizballah.

 

[Lotus49]

No you miscontrue my previous statements. In this invasion no dairy farms would be accidentaly destroyed (only if there Hizballahi fighters). And yes it does matter Hizbollah has at best support of third of population. If co-opt the remainder you will have easier time going, but indiscriminate attacks force them to join in with Hizbollah.

Further if the PM refuses you have paper stating that Lebanon is rogue state that harbours terrorsits and your war is at the very least legal and nobody from Egypt, Arabia or any other state can fault you.

Even if you got some kind of half-assed statement of co-operation w/ Lebanon (which is what would happen), they wouldn't actually act upon it... they'd just do the absolute bare minimum, at best - to keep the international community off their back. It would just be a big BS hassle. That's why Israel didn't bother. But, the point is -going back to the source of this little discussion- is there is no real viable diplomatic solution. Fighting is the only way. So, that's what's happening. Sidhe (and you apparently) were trying to take the Peace Corps approach, and be diplomatic, and solve everything in an ideal manner. I was simply saying I don't think that's realistic. And that makes me a 'war monger'.

Whatever. I'm not the one pulling the trigger over there. Let's just watch the news, and tune into the action.

 

[Sidhe]

The only way to have true, lasting peace is if you can give everyone what they want. With the (re)injection of the Israelite nation into the Middle East picture, and 'Zionism' - that is not possible. There is no acceptible solution, to accomodate both the Israelis, and the Arabs.

That is the reality - that is why war, conflict, fighting, and blood spilling on the sands... is the order of the day, indefinitely. There could not be a more 'perfect conflict', than the Israel/Palestine situation. And no matter how you may try to suppress it, it will never go away. You will never have 'peace'.

...unless one side is completely wiped out. And the only way to manage that, is to do it - one at a time (as they are doing, in fact).

That's the problem no one is going to get everything they want, the situation requires comnpromise, until that happens nothing can move forward, it is not a lost cause, but fighting on for eternity is, and trust me there will be no winners there. It may seem beyond the bounds of possibility now, but once the dim witted hawks are ousted form the US presidency we may, just may get to see a more moderate approach to the middle East, and once again the damaged goods Hamas is removed from Palestine we may also get to see some more moderate action in Palestine. At the moment there are too many war mongers making it all a potentially ceaseless blood bath.

I was watching a minister on TV today saying that in the house of parliament even his own party are turning against his support for Bush and his methods in the middle East, not one minister spoke up for Tony in the last round of questions, and on he plods regardless, our people are fighting to make Tony pull back from US boot licking, but they will fail because we never have control of what a governement does militarliy only the party in power does, and then only the Prime Minister has the real say. Why do idiots run powerful countries? Why is it when the majority in a democracy even our representatives are against Israel and supporting the US, we ignore them?

 

[Gladi]

Even if you got some kind of half-assed statement of co-operation w/ Lebanon (which is what would happen), they wouldn't actually act upon it... they'd just do the absolute bare minimum, at best - to keep the international community off their back. It would just be a big BS hassle. That's why Israel didn't bother. But, the point is -going back to the source of this little discussion- is there is no real viable diplomatic solution. Fighting is the only way. So, that's what's happening. Sidhe (and you apparently) were trying to take the Peace Corps approach, and be diplomatic, and solve everything in an ideal manner. I was simply saying I don't think that's realistic. And that makes me a 'war monger'.

Whatever. I'm not the one pulling the trigger over there. Let's just watch the news, and tune into the action.

Well that is definition of diplomacy- a BS hassle. My father once argued for three days abotu use of could\should\ought to in a single sentence .

Our point that this BS would make things easier for Israel to justify their action and thus somewhat less hate from Arabs and make it little bit easier and maybe not unite whole Arab world aganist them?

 

[happy_Alex]

That's the problem no one is going to get everything they want, the situation requires comnpromise, until that happens nothing can move forward, it is not a lost cause, but fighting on for eternity is, and trust me there will be no winners there. It may seem beyond the bounds of possibility now, but once the dim witted hawks are ousted form the US presidency we may, just may get to see a more moderate appraoch to the middle East, and once again the damaged goods Hamas is removed from Palestine we may also get to see some more moderate action in Palestine. At the moment there are too many war mongers making it all a potentially ceaseless blood bath.

I was watching a minister on TV today saying that in the house of parliament even his own party are turning against his support for Bush and his methods in the middle East, not one minister spoke up for Tony in the last round of questions, and on he plods regardless, our people are fighting to make Tony pull back from US boot licking, but they will fail because we never have control of what a governement does militarliy only the party in power does, and then only the Prime Minister has the real say. Why do idiots run powerful countries? Why is it when the majority in a democracy even our representatives are against Israel and supporting the US, we ignore them?

both are religious nut-cases, maybe thats a factor...

 

[Mott1]

Is this an excuse for terrorism or what?

But, to play your game, what is the source of injustice in Lebanon? Why Lebanese people should attack Israel, especially when Israel pulled out all of its troops from Lebanon in 2000?

I don't think he means it as an excuse for terrorism, I believe hes stating the root cause is Islamic extremism (I may be wrong) if so he is correct. Unfortunately there really is no military action Israel can undertake that will destroy Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a large movement supported by many in the Muslim World, in Lebenon and abroad. Even here in the U.S. a majority of the Muslim population support Hezbollah.

The best Israel can hope to achieve is to hurt Hezbollahs military capabilities and gain the same old temporary cease-fire until Hezbollah starts acting up again. The same sad and vicious cycle.

On a side note, I don't think your in la-la land , Israel has no choice but to take action, any inaction on Israel's part will only be seen as a sign of weakness and strengthen hezbollahs resolve. And any other Islamic extremist group whos intent is to annihilate Israel.


Sidhe,

I will answer your post when I get back in a few hours. You make some good points that I will address.

 

[FeelGood]

I`m afraid that the rewind of Shabra & Shatila is happening right now. Israel never learns. No amount of talk will satisfy their lust!

 

[Winner]

So tell us what they should have done to make you happy. Only thing that occures to me is beg for help.

Exactly. They should ask for an UN assistance force to help them drive Hezbollah out of Lebanon. Instead, they integrated it into the government. Bad choice, as they see now.

Winner you said it your self. Hisbollah is stronger than the Lebannese army. How should it destroy Hisbollah then? The only thing the army would obtain, would be to further destabilize Libanon. You have to remember that this is a country, which was under occupation until recently, and that it is only one year ago it's President was assasinated.

It was an ex-Prime Minister, as far as I know.

The answer is the same. I know their situation is hard, but they did the worst thing they could - left Hezbollah to take over large parts of Lebanon and legitimize it as a political party. They should have known better.

Syria and Iran are the real scumbags here, and the Lebannese government is screwed no matter what is does. Fight Hisbollah and die. Do nothing and Israel will bomb them.

Join Israel and destroy Hezbollah, that's the right choice. Unfortunately, that would be a political suicide for the government, so they will rather join Hezbollah. Welcome to the Middle East.

 

[Gladi]

Join Israel and destroy Hezbollah, that's the right choice. Unfortunately, that would be a political suicide for the government, so they will rather join Hezbollah. Welcome to the Middle East.

Alas it would also be real suicide. As far as it pains me to say it some people convinctions plae somewhat in face of death.

And there is UN presence there- amounting to nothing as they don't have the political capital by countries that make up the UN and the force.